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Doug,
Good answer. You bring up the best point ever. Your business, and the business of a rule book are that; business. I’m not going to ask why I can buy a chunk of metal and make a part for far less than buying it from a manufacture. That’s business.
You never pointed out who is going to take the liability of an accident when one happens?
That is the real unwritten vaule to the book. I’m sure you don’t want your name as the responsible party in the worst case accident.
I’m sure you carry manfactures liability insurance for your products, because just making and selling them would be real cheap and easy. What if a part failed and death was the result? Are you willing to be the responsible party? If so, I will cut and paste, and put your name on it as a contact person and company. (wow, that really was easy to save money)
You sure can hide the real benefit of money well spent.
The cost form a legal point of view is really expensive, otherwise we would just cut and paste.
Back to work,
JimJB
Great answers. I agree with most of what is being said.
The only problem lies with perception.
I agree we need a place for the used equipment which is sold to the new driver. I disagree with the stock class comments.
The perception is that Stock is for new drivers. Quite the opposite.
It is for a cost controlled option. Nowhere did anyone say Stock is entry level.
I know there are drivers buying brand new ICC motors and are new drivers.
I hope the CSC starts a club race requirement prior to racing in the CSC so they have some experience prior to entering.I know all is getting wrapped up shortly.
Thanks,
JimDoug,
Let’s see how this works from the other side of the coin.
Average Shockwave part – $40.00.
1 per kart on average
130 X $40.00 = $5,200.00Class sponsorship sent to Florida (outside Colorado) Priceless…
When do you want to work together with a positive attitude and help fix any of the problems you always point out?
Just wondering?
Jimps. the rule book cost $75.00. It doesn’t matter how many were purchased, I paid $75.00.
Freezman,
No, I’m not in charge of any TaG organization. I’m just trying to do a test in a controlled enviroment. One kart, one motor, one driver. vary the amount of lead. Same time of day, same tires. Start checking times.
My point is, Why is there 10 lbs difference between moto and ICC?
Why 10 lbs.? Why is there 30 lbs. difference between TaG motors? Why 30 lbs.
I know no one has done the proper testing. They used race results to determine the weight. Different karts, different motors, different drivers.
Instead of standing on the sidelines yelling, I’m going to take my time, document the results, and if people want to believe it, fine, if not, that’s fine too, at least I will know what makes a difference.
Trying to take a step forward,
JimTom and Brad, you guys are heading in the right direction. I get so frustrated when someone yells loud enough to get the rules changed to benefit a weak motor or a bad buying decision.
Let the market fall into place.
If you buy a bad product, bad decision. Lets not change the rules to help out a bad purchase.
We all make mistakes.
Weight can be an effective tool as long as we know what weight does.
Nobody last year did proper testing in a controlled environment to test weight and the effects. Using race results is the WORST CASE situation for comparison. Too many variables, period. This Spring, If I can take the time, I will do the testing. Then, we can know how much to take off or put on to “level” the field.
Everyone out there from the Tech officials, to race promoters, to fellow competitors throw around 10Lbs, like they all know what 10 Lbs. does.
I at least know it makes more of a change at the senior level than the Masters level, and makes more of an impact at the junior level. What impact? I don’t know. I just love the answer that 10Lbs. adds 1/4 sec., a 1/2 second. etc… And then the dyno results. Once again, point of reference, not real world applied.
Keep the thinking cap on, eventually we will get a fair and good answer.
Bye for now,
JimBrad,
You are right. I should of had a seperate poll on if a drop at all and if so, how many races to get a drop.
Next poll?
So everyone out there responding, please use only the top two options.
Thanks,
JimSorry for the reply that it takes a lot to “Provide” a race.
Good luck, and I look forward to the notice of race and entry form.
Bye for now,
JimGood morning all,
I like the Greely idea. I don’t like how it is evolving.
The city council members were brought down to the Denver Grand Prix and saw all the excitement that was going on. I know this is what helped sell the idea to them.
The down side is, no one has asked what it costs to even start a set-up close to what they are expecting.
Once details get sorted out, a decision can be made.
From a promoters side of things, it takes a lot of time and planning to put on a race at a temp track (huge deal.) From a racers point of view, I load the trailer and start driving, “what’s the big deal?” Please try to keep that in mind as everyone gets excited about new venues.As far as our schedule vs Pro Kart in So Cal, their season has started already. Ours just ended.
Happy Holidays to all,
JimPS… more news coming soon, I promise…
Oh no, it’s deja vu all over again…
3/4 cadence, straight eyes, bent knees, lugging the bongo-timbali clusters out in the rain, with sleet on our hands, the horn players lips freezing to the horns, and having to open with the theme from “Rocky.” It’s so cold, the drum sticks slide out of our grip all day long….
Still, the best memories…
Good luck you guys,
Jim (former percussionist)(still play a mean steering-wheel drum set…)Chuck,
I don’t want to get confused about only one motor. My idea was to have to declare a motor package you were going to run for the season. No one could buy motor “A” for one type of track and motor “B” for another type of track. You would have to declare the motor at the first race for the season.
All of the rules orgs. need to figure out the weight breaks.
Thanks all.
JimJB,
I couldn’t agree more. The Corp. karts we are using have approx 14,000 laps on each one, and I have changed the oil.
They run forever, so far…(knock on wood).
JimFreesman,
If I went into the Honda store and bought two cr125 kit motors, both would have “production” variances. One might have a ccv of one number and the other might be 1/1000th different. Production variances. I can’t touch either one. period. That is “Stock”. The second anyone changes either motor, it isn’t stock.
The differences between either motor are never going to be seen on the race track, ever.
The NW wanted to set a CCV number to make all the motors “SPEC”. It didn’t work. People started milling the heads, and guess what? Grind marks and now the whole mess has started over again.
Why can’t karters work on their driving time and ability to better themselves, rather than than the last 10% of the equation? I would trade 20 hours of seat time for any motor built. period.I hope the rule for any “Stock” 125 motor comes down to one simple test.
“All parts must be currently manufactured and price competitive and quickly available for the customer” regardles of the year of beginning manfacturing date. If this simple test could be met, the customer will not suffer.This way, if someone has a friend at “Special 125 Motor CO.” and has them build a “Stock 125”, proves that nothing was “aftermarket”, and kicks everyone arse, whats to stop them? Hopefully the rules.
More food for thought.Just a side note and Bob Reed will love this..(sailing and all) I had to deal with the same problem in sailing. Racing stock boats. You could not change the profile of the boat as it left the factory. It was a stock class. The serious guy with too much time on his hands would actuall try to re-build and change the shape and length of the boat to affect speed.
You should have seen the tests we had to perform to keep the class “Stock”.
The Stock Honda rule is so simple, its the hardest rule to follow. “Don’t touch it!” I love it…
JimMitch,
Stock is STOCK. All the differences in production are for information purposes only. Now you, I and the competitor know that there are variances. OEM Gaskets, spec carb, pipe. One grind mark, you are OUT!
Why Honda… a motor that is in production and a manufacture that isn’t going to change it because of karting. Every dealer in town has a part I need today.
Why not the others…? TaG.
Until we can fairly test and determine what stock is and power output, Honda is it. Barry is going to hate this answer, but so what. Only “Honda” doesn’t prevent anyone from entering the class. Waitiing to “order” another motor does.
I am aware there are other brands being run today, but nobody knows what has been done to them. We have a base line with the stock Honda to follow. Once someone says let this in, the slippry slope has begun.
If we don’t stand firm, it will all be messed up within 3 months.
I agree with Doug, the motor comes in a kit form. If you want to put it together yourself, have at it. I paid a “builder” to put mine together so I don’t mess it up. I haven’t touched it all year until Steamboat. I was prepared to do a top end. We laughed when I pulled the head off. It looked brand new! I put in a ring because I had it with me, and bolted her back together.
All the bragging about hp with a stock motor is just that – bragging. I could care less what my motor puts out as long as I know the competitors motor is “STOCK.”Thanks,
JimThis point of view comes from me, Jim Keesling kart racer.
The whole problem with the “seal” is Rotax drivers WANTING (Needing) to race two series.
One series requires a seal, one does not.I have torn my stock motor down 3 times now, and have put it back together. That’s one of the costs of RACING.
We are in a rock and a hard spot. We have a lot of Rotax motors here in Colorado, and I know you all want to race the two very different series.
At some point in time, the driver needs to decide which is more important.See you all in Steamboat,
Jim
