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Thanks Doug,
I would hope that sence the ICC’s are becoming boat anchors, CSC would stop the promotion of them to be used in all but one shifter class.
It’s pretty sad that the top rung of our karting ladder is weighted down with boat anchors. No wonder we can’t have too many karters in pro ICC. The ladder and racer is broke. What is the plans for next years rules?
A continuation of the broken ladder?
Maybe for a motor to be used in karting, it should be able to run a tiller for a hole day before it needs freshening. At least when I ran and blew up Briggs motors I wasn’t out $4000.00 plus dollars every three weeks.
Sorry for the bitching and moaning, yet this is a forum for it.
S-3 looks like the class for me if I deside to race again. But I still think even S-3 should only be part of our karting ladder and the next rung up shouldn’t mean trading in a dependable motor package in exchange for a boat anchor.Some compression rules and the new longer rod for a better rod/stroke ratio for the adult 4 cycle class would make the little ohv last longer. But then again I would also like to cut up some trannies off them old ICC’s so the OHV could do some shifting. 🙂
Rod/stroke ratios:
stock flathead.. 1.59/1
typical limited mod flathead.. 1.85/1
327 chevy.. 1.75/1
350 chevy.. 1.64/1
Pro stock street bike.. 2.05/1
stock animal.. 1.53/1
What’s the rod length and stroke of a Biland? It would be nice to have some gears to shift on one of them too.The closest we have ever been to getting karting up to par with the dirt bike racers was when the rotax came along, too bad it went to monopolization in stead of the Bombardier’s dealer and financing network in every city.
Mitch if your considering sending me that extra $3200.00 please just send it to Doug for me, Thanks :cheers:I have had my ICC engine for 4 years now and have been extremely happy with it and it has been very dependable.
Running cost to date for me has been no more than the mild Hondas that I ran since 1989.
The engine is stock, I have replaced the bottom end bearings twice and timed out the rod once. I find the engine to be fun to tune and rewarding to drive.
Is it as fast as a super tuned engine? I am sure it is not but when I have been able to race it runs well and don’t feel I am getting beat power wise.
I can run times that are competitive for G1 when out testing. I find that lack of race seat time is more of a factor for me racing competitive not the engine.I know a lot of recreational racers that have had great experiences with there ICC engines.
Is see no reason not to run Moto and ICC engine together it done quit sucessfully at club events out side of Colorado. I would perfer to finish 10th in a race with 20 racers than 1st in a race with 5. My personal experiance has been when racing in big fields my skill level improves.
I have a suggestion……..Make the JR-1 animal class a sealed motor class, this will reduce the cost for entry level karters. The rules and engine package should remain the same from year to year so it doesn’t become a bigger arms race than it already is.
Thanks
Mike Edwards
owner Kart 45Mitch I agree that the ICC and Moto’s should be run together… Last year when I switched from my old reliable Hi-Tech Honda to the Hi Tech Pavesi I thought it was the right move to be competitive in the G-1 class at the Pro moto.. However in the short time that I did run it I spent more money on the ICC in 2 months than I did in 3 years with the Honda. If I ever decide to drive again I will go straight to the Moto and Live happily ever after……
I think we all need to come together as a group (Nation Wide and it will take a miracle) and do what is best for karting and come up with a class structure that is proactive not destined to fail..
here are a few suggestions:
Kid kart (Stock, Stock, Stock)
Comer 80
Mini Max (Sealed) or comprable
Tag Jr (Sealed)
Tag Snr(Sealed)
Tag Master (Sealed)
Stock Moto
S-2 Moto or ICC (Limited Mods)
Pro ICC or Moto
G-1 ICC or MotoWe,ve had no problems with our Icc. I might not push it as hard as some, if we hurt that one we’re done. We have been religious about top ends, oil changes etc… We are hoping to have a place to run our boat anchor, at least another year. We have seen in some of the races we,ve been in this year. Moto’s run very good in direct competition with the Icc, Chris Farrell, Mike Frank and Tom Kutscher come to mind. It looks like weight limits where Roman could be competitive in the Shifter classes. We’re just hanging out to see what develops before next season.
I am one of the people who has been in karting a lilttle over two years, and more than likely will not run CSC next year. If my son finds another sport, we will be done karting other than for fun. I meet some great people and had fun at the events we have been allowed to run. I don’t mind the cost, but nine races is to much. Five ( one a month) with one drop can be done within a buget. The Run Offs is a different world from SKUSA.
Steve Compton
Joel Compton Mini Max #13Stacy maybe that is the difference between stock and hot rodded.
I like your classes, how would would you seal the engines?
The other question I have is what is stock? as long as there are specs to tech the to ( most maunfactures have a + or – tolerance a builder can maximize or minimize and still be stock)
We have Showroom stock classes and there are stock and then there is STOCK. Someone has to determain what that is.
Do we need 4 125 classes? Stock, Heavy Moto and ICC and Light Moto ICC. Stock Moto why just Honda and the parts are now 7 years out of production why not Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki?
I think your leaving out the 4/ Animal/WF WF or similar is a cheap way to start Can the run with the Comers in JR whatever?On the club side could a guy with a can Yamaha run with the 4/mods?
Mitch, those are alot of good questions and suggestions.. We have only been around karting for about 4 years and really don’t feel that I have the experience or knowledge without some help from guys like you.. I really think that we are chasing our tails unless we get people together with the experience and desire to really try and get karting on the right course. Some people will suffer and complain but if that means for example that we only have 1 big event next year at GJMS but it is what is best for karting in Colorado then that is what we need to do. We need guys like you to step in and help come up with a plan the really is in the best interest of karting and stick to it.. organized and affordable is what comes to mind..
“However in the short time that I did run it I spent more money on the ICC in 2 months than I did in 3 years with the Honda”
“I might not push it as hard as some, if we hurt that one we’re done.”
” organized and affordable is what comes to mind.. “I would have quoted from Mitch too but his ICC is stock which isn’t the norm in ICC classes if you want a checkerd flag.
I shure don’t understand why we need to continue promoting the ICC.
Heck if you think seals are going to fix all the classes you might as well put seals on the moto’s and ICC’s too, the 2007 $8,000.00 ICC could just get a 50 pound seal, then we all can feel safe with no need for tech.
For karting to be such a small sport we shure do have too many chioces.
Wouldn’t it be cool if there was only one manufactered kart motor with a complete set of specs for all shops and karters to follow and we had too many people that knew all the tricks to make them run well? Sorry, I have got to keep dreaming as I too am still waiting sence last year to see what developes.Mitch wrote:
“I think your leaving out the 4/ Animal/WF WF or similar is a cheap way to start Can the run with the Comers in JR whatever?
On the club side could a guy with a can Yamaha run with the 4/mods? “Shure here in Colorado anyone can run anything, the last thing we want is to exclude someone that has a kart. The racer with a can yamaha would then get a pipe to be competitive in a race with mod 4 strokes. Then the Mod 4 strokes would want a bigger cam to compete with the piped yamaha and we would be racing in circles just like we’re used to. Lets get the Burriss F200 started too and muddy it up some more.
I have to through in a little of my briggs crap experiance. The animal and WF motors are the cheeper of the power plants. Briggs motors are what has kept me in the sport all my life. The OHV is still new to briggs, earlier this year briggs came out with the 4th block design change to the OHV in as little as 2 years and still haven’t improved the motors worst characteristic it has, which I mentioned above. This does mean that anyone with a WF or Animal that has had it for more than 6 months should really look into getting the new heavier duty block designed to help hold the poor rod/crank ratio togather. Besides that little problem, the Briggs OHV is pretty good at being a kart motor in it’s stock form and could last for quite a while, one other problem though, in Colorado we don’t race them in stock form. I would bet WF’s with out rev limiters have made twice the laps in Colorado than one’s with rev limiters.
For a motor to have rules that don’t change from year to year, first we need a motor that isn’t changed from month to month.
I have got to stop the more I think about the mess karting is in the more I want to run from any “Orginized kart racing”Just a follow up to my post…….In the JR-1 animal class you don’t have to up grade the block every month, just keep the RPM’s under 7000 and they will last. Were still running the same block from 2 years ago.
Thanks
Mike EdwardsThe new homolagation period won’t relegate the current ICC’s to become boat anchors. Kyle is still running our 03 pavesi that is in the homolagation period that ended Dec 03. It still seems to keep up with the current period motors. 😆 Will probably do just fine next year.
I think STARS honors the previous period. SKUSA doesn’t have such a rule.
Bill Ray
Mitch,
Stock is STOCK. All the differences in production are for information purposes only. Now you, I and the competitor know that there are variances. OEM Gaskets, spec carb, pipe. One grind mark, you are OUT!
Why Honda… a motor that is in production and a manufacture that isn’t going to change it because of karting. Every dealer in town has a part I need today.
Why not the others…? TaG.
Until we can fairly test and determine what stock is and power output, Honda is it. Barry is going to hate this answer, but so what. Only “Honda” doesn’t prevent anyone from entering the class. Waitiing to “order” another motor does.
I am aware there are other brands being run today, but nobody knows what has been done to them. We have a base line with the stock Honda to follow. Once someone says let this in, the slippry slope has begun.
If we don’t stand firm, it will all be messed up within 3 months.
I agree with Doug, the motor comes in a kit form. If you want to put it together yourself, have at it. I paid a “builder” to put mine together so I don’t mess it up. I haven’t touched it all year until Steamboat. I was prepared to do a top end. We laughed when I pulled the head off. It looked brand new! I put in a ring because I had it with me, and bolted her back together.
All the bragging about hp with a stock motor is just that – bragging. I could care less what my motor puts out as long as I know the competitors motor is “STOCK.”Thanks,
Jim“Stock is STOCK. All the differences in production are for information purposes only. I could care less what my motor puts out as long as I know the competitors motor is “STOCK.”
How do you know that a competitor is stock with out a set of specs to tech too? Stock is stock and tech is tech.
“All the differences in production are for information purposes only.”
That’s a good new spin, I suppose then, that information is only for cheaters?Mitch wrote:”We have Showroom stock classes and there are stock and then there is STOCK. Someone has to determain what that is.”
Just like in SCCA, in karting there is also someone that determains what stock is going to be. If that someone decides that the stock motor should have something then it will. S-3 looks like it’s going to go, how well, and how long it goes will depend a lot on how well the tech is written and performed.
I am a little leary of the idea that the newest hottest kart racing class of the fewture requires a 6 year old motor to be used. I do hope that “someone” person knows the supply and demand issue better than me.
It is nice to have parts available every where, yet just how widely available are 99 honda parts? Is the motor still being produced? I heard it was, but the funny thing is, I heard it was still being produced “because of karting”.Freesman,
If I went into the Honda store and bought two cr125 kit motors, both would have “production” variances. One might have a ccv of one number and the other might be 1/1000th different. Production variances. I can’t touch either one. period. That is “Stock”. The second anyone changes either motor, it isn’t stock.
The differences between either motor are never going to be seen on the race track, ever.
The NW wanted to set a CCV number to make all the motors “SPEC”. It didn’t work. People started milling the heads, and guess what? Grind marks and now the whole mess has started over again.
Why can’t karters work on their driving time and ability to better themselves, rather than than the last 10% of the equation? I would trade 20 hours of seat time for any motor built. period.I hope the rule for any “Stock” 125 motor comes down to one simple test.
“All parts must be currently manufactured and price competitive and quickly available for the customer” regardles of the year of beginning manfacturing date. If this simple test could be met, the customer will not suffer.This way, if someone has a friend at “Special 125 Motor CO.” and has them build a “Stock 125”, proves that nothing was “aftermarket”, and kicks everyone arse, whats to stop them? Hopefully the rules.
More food for thought.Just a side note and Bob Reed will love this..(sailing and all) I had to deal with the same problem in sailing. Racing stock boats. You could not change the profile of the boat as it left the factory. It was a stock class. The serious guy with too much time on his hands would actuall try to re-build and change the shape and length of the boat to affect speed.
You should have seen the tests we had to perform to keep the class “Stock”.
The Stock Honda rule is so simple, its the hardest rule to follow. “Don’t touch it!” I love it…
JimSince many people want inexpensive Kart racing , I’ve often wondered why we do not have the Honda 4-strokes instead of Briggs ?
We at Action Karting have almost 20 Honda 6.5 engines with 2-1 transmissions using 428 chains that seem to run forever !
Most of these Motors have been In our rental fleet for nearly 4 years now , other than changing oil every few months they seem to be indestructable !
We currently rent TAG karts with Leopard motors and seldom do top-end re-builds! Seems to me both types of motors are relatively cheap and dependable !
J.B.
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