An Idea for next year.

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    Doug Welch

    After talking with Jim in GJ, I really get the strong feeling that The Track is finally going to come into existance. I think that’s great for karting. But I see a problem, particularly with the CSC. If we do 2 races at each track like this year, we now have a 9 race series. Plus the days are long. I think the CSC would be hurt in the long run and for sure the club races would be killed.

    What I propose is that the CSC drop to 5 events. One at each of the tracks and Steamboat with no drops. At the same time, the CSC drops Tag from its list of classes and forms a seperate series. That series is sricitly Tag and could include seperate Rotax or Easy Kart races. The CSC would be more shifter orientated and the other series more clutch kart orientated. Steamboat could be a combined series event. The same organization could run both series.

    The tracks would have just as many events scheduled at their respective tracks and the opportunity to make money. The racers would get more track time and a shorter schedule.


    I dissagree with, in my words, disowning the TaG?s. It would just cost more for those who are, in one way or another, running more than just the TaG class. And why dose the CSC need to be more shifter orientated? :idn:

    Brad Linkus

    If you drop TAG from the series you will have half the entries. Then having a TAG only series you will have twice the 5 races and a low turn out for all of them. All of that to have two races that make no money. I have two races now that make money. Makes no sense to me. If I have to compete with two series then why even do club races. I know I am not willing to drop one of my CSC races, they are the only ones I make any money on. You have to have at least 50 racers to break even for any race. We just get enough now to keep running club races. If the Track ever does open 90% or more of the racers will come from what we allready have. Just because you open a new track does not mean all these new racers come out of the woodwork. That will mean all of the club races at my track will go down in numbers until more new racers are found. Racers will only go to a limited number of events no matter how many events and tracks there are. Bottom line, we need to find more racers to fill all of these events. Add another track, add 12 more events for club races, a CSC, throw in another SKUSA race and you have 14 more events for the 150 karters we have now. Do the math, why do you think JB quit running club races. It would be nice if people would stay in the sport for more than two or three years but that is how karting has been since I was a kid. The new racers just replace the ones that quit. Next year we will lose many karters to the sprint cars and will be lucky to get that many back in new karters for next season. Hey Doug, wouldn’t be great to have twelve tracks near Denver and have one race at each track, then you would not have to do any club races or even go to any national races :loony: Only problem is all of them would go out of business.

    Mitch Wright


    Here I go thinking again:

    Would it not be better to have 70 racer average for your 10-12 club events and one big event with a large entry?
    Would that better support parts and fuel sales all season long?
    Your one big event could be 2 days (adjust entry to importance of the event) with additional revenue from out of town testing on Friday?
    Remember I am just asking questions and we are exchanging ideas.

    Another idea:

    Run CSC events as 2 day 2 round events like Stars 4-5 events 8-10 rounds
    Would save on travel and time.

    OK I have my goalie pads on fire back.

    Doug Welch

    The numbers for this years CSC are down from last year. That’s a simple fact. If we add another track to the mix, the CSC in its current form grows to 9 races and it stops club racing altogether. In addition, the pressure will be on to add still another drop. So a 9 race series with 2 drops, who gest hurt. Bandimere and Grand Junction, two the base stalwarts of the series.

    Brad, you are right about two things. First, most karters only stay in it for 2-3 years. We’ve been racing for 9. Mitch has been in karting his entire life. We were stupid enough to fall in love with this sport and we care about it deeply. Most get tired of the bull crap and bail. Second, racer have only enough money and time on average for 10 events per year. If the CSC grows to 9, kiss club racing goodby.

    What I’m proposing is something like what is going on in southern California except YOU get to control everything. Two series like Gatorz and ProKart. Change the name if you’re hung up on it but if you had two series, one for clutch karts and one for shifter. Each series is 5 (or 4) races, no drops and a racer has to do 2 or 3 club races (any track) for their points to be good in the regional series.

    You as a track owner get two events, just like now. If you spend some time promoting the events, each series will get more total racers than if you continued with one series only. You will gain additional entries for your club races. At the end of the year, you will have more money in your pocket than if you continue down the current path.

    I know some think that the addition of The Track will hurt existing tracks. But I disagree. If each track works on promoting karting, each track is located in a stratigically different area. It opens up karting to new potential customers who dont know what’s going on, on the other side of town. It also gives racers a chance to go around different tracks. I know that for us, we quickly got tired on only going around one track. If your track was the only one in town, we would have quit the sport a long time ago. But the fact that we have been able to go to over 24 different tracks around the country has helped keep our interest in the sport. Many people quit because they are bored. More tracks gives more options and will only help keep racers in the sport.

    I see three option for next year.

    First, add The Track and do the CSC just like this year. 9 races, 2 drops. The results I see are lower overall numbers per event than this year ( a continuing trend from last year) and fewer entries for club races.

    Second, two series like I suggest and we will have more overall racers with increased club participation.

    Three. Every man (track) for themself.

    What will it be?


    Okay, so make csc more “shifter friendly” bring in a whole other TaG series, I can’t wait to see what genius idea you have for the comers, kids, jr 1’s, and senior 4 cycles.
    And what about those of us who ONLY wanna do club races? thats all we can really afford? Ive been racing for 4 yrs, ya’ll already pushed us out of the csc, what else do you wanna push the four cycles out of? everything?
    i know blink hears me here


    I hope we don’t go to 2 day race weekends. We will have to start taking Friday off to travel to GJ, and getting pits setup around here. West slope guys will have the same scenerio coming over here.
    I really like my football Saturdays in the fall.


    Brad Linkus


    With the Motar bikes I get about that much now. Before SKUSA and now the CSC, we were getting 120 every race. When SKUSA started here our club races went down and we were giving SKUSA the money for the big races, which were not as big as our club races the year before. We started the CSC to at least get some of it back for the tracks. In reality, if we did not have any series going on then the club races would be the only game in town and they would grow. It does not matter if you had a 5 race or a 7 race series. It is in the mind of the racer that these series races are the most important and the club races are nothing. It is all a matter of perception. When my club races had 120 karts they were the big deal. The point is it is still the same people. What do you think the Nations cup was? 75 karts from our state and 15 karts from out of state, more or less a CSC race with less karts, about half of our total group. If the Colorado karts did not attend, what would you have had? A cancellation is what you would have had. The Nations cup is just an example of one more event for Colorado that is added to the calendar for the 150 Colorado karters to choose from.
    What the sport needs is less sanctioning bodies for the whole nation. Stars, SKUSA, WKA, and IKF are all going for the same crowd. With the price of gas the way it is now not all of the national races will survive. They are canceling events all over for poor turn out. You can?t even put up $50,000 and have any karts show. It struck me in Vegas last year looking at who attended; it was not in town by the casinos and the general public. It was just the same group of karters that were there, no crowd to watch, just the racers and their pitt people. When I attended IKF national events in the 70?s there were 500 karters there all week and big crowds to watch on the weekends. Things have really changed since then. The dirt races are getting the 500 karts to a national now. When you have to spend $7000 on one shifter engine to be competitive, or have to buy a new animal engine every three races, you run off 90% of your possible new karters. TAG is even expensive to get into but at least the engines last for a while.

    Like I said, the bottom line is we need more racers, not more races and more tracks. We need to reduce the cost of getting into racing. I was talking to Mark Kite, the sales manager at Sun Honda this weekend and he said if it were not for the financing they have available to them from Honda and others that Sun would only sell 20% of the bikes that they do now. That may be right and I have been looking into getting financing that is affordable for new karters. There are over 1500 motocross racers with an AMA card in Colorado, and thousands that do not race. I do not see why karting only has 10% of that amount racing.

    Doug Welch

    @Ellee mae wrote:

    And what about those of us who ONLY wanna do club races? thats all we can really afford? Ive been racing for 4 yrs, ya’ll already pushed us out of the csc, what else do you wanna push the four cycles out of? everything?

    Club racers are exactly the guys I’m most concerned about. They are the backbone of karting and the racers we most often overlook. By breaking the CSC into two series, clutch karts and shifters, we expand the opportunities for 4 cycles, not lessen them. We can make club racing stronger, not weaker. The CSC has hurt club racing and it has reduced opportunites for club racers.

    Look, right now we have 7 shifter classes. We have 6 clutch kart classes in the CSC. Why not break it into 2 series and expand the clutch karts to include Rotax or Leopard only classes and 4 cycle classes. It gives the club racer, particularly the 4 cycle guys an option they don’t have now. By only being a 4 or 5 race series, it doesn’t break your bank and by tying in 2 or 3 club races to make your regional points good, how does it hurt you? You can take your potato digger to the other tracks if you want and it keeps your club program strong.

    Ellee, if you took a minute to see the postives, you will see I’m trying to help you, not hurt you. I’m trying to give you back what the CSC took away. I’m not trying to push anyone out, rather I’m trying to give everyone more opportunites.

    The only racers this works againest is the racer who is trying to run both a clutch kart and a shifter. But those are very few. I think far more will benifit than are hurt by this. And even if they still wanted to do both, they would be doing no more races by doing both than they would by doing a single expanded CSC series. Except that with two series, they will get to race each kart more on race day. Isn’t that what most racers want?

    Brad Linkus


    Two day races, forget it. Twice the expense for the promoter and not twice the gross and another day of lost rental business.

    And Doug:
    1. California has over 2000 karters.

    2. Two race series will have less racers and will have the same turnout as a club race gets now if that much. Where are the increased numbers coming from? There will not be enough to run two series and make any money with half the karts.

    3. I have two good races now and still have club races that are making some money.

    4. It will be a long time before THE TRACK will get 70 new racers into the sport, in the meantime the racers they get will come from the same crowd.
    40% of the racers are from that side of town.

    We should call FEMA now as it will be dog eat dog!

    Doug Welch

    @blink wrote:

    What do you think the Nations cup was?

    I think it was a joke to call it a “national” event.

    @blink wrote:

    When you have to spend $7000 on one shifter engine to be competitive, or have to buy a new animal engine every three races, you run off 90% of your possible new karters. TAG is even expensive to get into but at least the engines last for a while.

    You couldn’t be more correct. The bottom line to get into karting now is a joke. It is killing karting worse than anything right now.

    We agree on far more than we disagree. For you, if the CSC didn’t exist, your club program would improve. But what about the sport as a whole? MX is strong for some of the very reasons you point out. You can finance a bike but you can also ride it at a dozen different tracks around the state and you can ride it down the street. More tracks doesn’t seem to have hurt MX bikes, why do you automaticly think it will hurt karting?

    I think more tracks will keep karters in the sport longer because they have more places to play. With fewer tracks, if a guy gets bored with only game in town (or pissed off), he’s gone. With more tracks, we might keep him in the sport.

    I think lower costs will help keep karters in the sport longer. Classes like stock moto are a strong step forward to helping reduce engine costs. The motor we just finished cost me $3200 and should last all season. And its only 4 or 5 hp below the best of the built ICC’s. I’m doing my part. I make quality products and sell them for less than any OEM part out there.

    You are right, we need more karters. The best way to get them is more options, not fewer and lower costs. Cut throat competition won’t help anyone but cooporation will help everyone.

    Brad Linkus

    It was a joke to call it a National.

    Many of the MX tracks are not open except on a race day. Some do not even have race events, only practice. There are thousands of MX bikes sold in CO every year and dozens of shops for support. That makes plenty of MXrs for each track. Thousands of used bikes available cheap. Two AMA race organizations that put on over 50 events a year. Factory support for both clubs that get 400 bikes each even when they run the same weekend. Karts are not the same as bikes in price and yearly maintence. Karting is more kart/engine than driver, MX is more Rider than Bike. 99% run stock bikes, there never is a tear down as a good rider does not need to mod his bike to win. MX you don’t need to spend a wad to be competitive, you need to practice. Karting you need to spend a wad and practice and you don’t even need to be in good shape. MX you won’t have a chance if you are fat and out of shape, they don’t need weights to make it fair.


    Preface my comments: I like controversy on this site, it makes people think!

    These suggestions sound like a “Divide and Conquer” strategy.

    The Colorado karters are a great bunch. I would hate to see shifters go their way and clutch karts go their way and never the twane shall meet. I see lower attendance at races and that doesn’t thrill me.

    I am partial to the Club series at local tracks, as that is the way I got involved.

    It is mentioned above that most karters fly the coop after 3 yrs and I agree with that. I can only think of ONE person who was around racing 7 yrs ago when I started and that is Chuck and his son at IMI.

    It all comes down to promoting the sport to bring in newbies. How good we do that will determine where Colorado karting goes.

    Maybe a comittee should be set up to brainstorm ideas and promote karting in Colorado.

    Rodney Ebersole

    Hay, at least there is something to read about today on the forum.

    “The motor we just finished cost me $3200 and should last all season. And its only 4 or 5 hp below the best of the built ICC’s. I’m doing my part”

    Are you selling them for that or are you going to try and take all the victories with it? If your going to race it maybe a restictor on it would serve the other karters better. 😛

    If I knew the answer to gettting and keeping karters going to the races, I would still be going to the races myself.

    Heres another opinion. The kart racers need to controll CSC, not the tracks or shops. I know that would be hard to orginize, yet the 50% of racers that attend CSC events are the die hard karters that have a stake at making shure that other people are in thier class to race against. CSC could be a true Club that has the power of the racer to tell the tracks when, where and what, the karters are going to race.
    For ease of the club members CSC should have one race at all five colorado tracks with the final at Steam Boat with no drops. Then we would be Crowning a true state chump. The tracks and shops can compete in the CSC and continue promoting thier track and components. With just six races in the run for state chump the races would be very important, even for every tacks club members, yet the racer would need to participate in other events in order to be up to speed for the state races.
    Keep the ideas flowing, and PM me if you have an extra 3200 bucks laying around so I can by a stock dirt bike motor.
    Aren’t stock ICC’s about 3200 dollars out of the box? Maybe we should have a claimer S-3 class?

    Doug Welch

    @Freezeman wrote:

    Are you selling them for that or are you going to try and take all the victories with it? If your going to race it maybe a restictor on it would serve the other karters better. 😛

    I will sell it for that or I will give you the sources and you can have one done yourself for roughly the same money. Makes no difference to me, I’ll just go get another one. Actually, it would be less if you forgo the dyno tuning. A brand new assembled motor can be had for around $2,700 with everything you need, pipe, silencer, carb, mount. $1,900 for the assembled motor then add the other stuff. Check out for sources.

    New ICC packages retail for around $4,000 now. And guess what, 2007 starts a whole new homolgation peiord so your motor you buy this coming year will be a boat anchor the following year.

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