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I’m sorry some people have taken our stance as some kind of sinister plot against Rotax. It is not.
As I’ve stated before. We are not the only series in the country that doesn’t recognize the seal. The only one is RMC.
TAG USA also does NOT require the seal. AS with WKA.
In a time when cost is a major concern paying to seal a motor to prove it’s legality seems unneccesary. We verify it’s legality after the race at no charge. Maintaining your own engine with out sealing could represent a large savings. If you prefer the work done by others your not limited. I’m sure just freshening an engine at a dealer still costs less than sealing one.
Having said all that. Like I posted before, I generally recognize the seal. But, we still have the right to cut it. The rules are well known before hand.
Todd,
you obviously don’t get it and are missing the point completely. The seal doesn’t cost anyone money. The seal is only worth I think it was $2. What costs money is breaking the seal due to ridiculous rules that don’t accept the authenticity of the seal. The Rotax was here before the TAG series and obviously before SKUSA jumped on the band wagon and the Rotax will be here long after TAGUSA and SKUSA and IKF and WKA ……etc. screw the whole TAG concept up.
Mike,
Do you think it is possible that the TAG class is getting messed up on purpose? It almost seems like the powers that be are trying to force the TAG series into extinction. TAGUSA making assinine weight changes then withdrawing them and then doing it again. The ’05 leopard being legal to run from the begining of the year and then they have a revalation that the ’05 is different than the previous years?? You may see me in the S3 class before the year is out.
While none of us will deny that SKUSA or any other sanctioning body has the right to cut the seal, to say its a cost savings to not have a seal is silly and ignors the facts.
First, the Rotax Biland and EasyKart are something most of the other engines are not, they last a long time between services and for the most part, do not require ANY servicing over the course of the season. In Biland’s case, it’s several years. The only maintenance racers are having to do is caused by SKUSA tearing into the motor! I was at a WKA race this weekend and they did an extensive tech but they didn’t go inside any engine. They checked the carbs, head volumn, squish, stroke and pipe. Tearing engines apart is for the most part, punative and rarely uncovers anything non-compliant that couldn’t have been checked by other methods. You can even check exhaust port height using the light method without removing the seal.
Properly maintained, we don’t have to do anything to the motor. I have one that is untouched since new over a year ago.
All cutting the seal does is this, it raises the costs for those racers who want to do both RMax and Tag. Most of those racers are on a budget and don’t have the funds to throw money at their engines, THAT’S WHY THEY OWN A ROTAX!
What you are telling the budget racers is, we don’t want you in our series. In this country, there has NEVER been a single thing found internally non-compliant in a Rotax (or any other of the sealed motors) that required breaking the seal to find. All of the non-compliant infractions could be found by checking the PERFORMANCE items I listed without breaking the seal. There was a non-compliance a few years ago but Rotax admitted they screwed up at the factory and it wasn’t a fault of the sealing program.
Todd, you have the right to break the seal, we have the right not to race at your series. You don’t have squat for customers right now, you want to lose more? I would think you would be trying to find a way to attract more customers, not running off the ones you have. Keep up the arroagant attitude and you won’t have to worry about customers.
I’ll throw out an idea.
Let’s take a page from SCCA:After race, all karts go to a designated “impound” area.
Everyone in the race is given 20 minutes to inspect all the other kart’s
that ran. During this period if they wish to file a protest on another kart,
it must be done during this time.
Inside of motors can be inspected with a borescope.
With the borescope, you can pull the plug, look at the ports, piston, rings and cylinder. Plus you can take off the airbox, open the slide or butterfly and inspect the reeds.
No need to break seals, and split cases.
This brings a degree of self governing to the racers, makes tech easier,
and everyone is satisfied.
(G-RPM will provide a Provision Borescope to the CSC at cost)Another idea (we are using this one in the Easykart Series and it works well) again from the pages of SCCA road racing.
You win and kill the competition, add 5 lbs.
Plus makes for a fun race by flipping the grid in the final.I think we all have to take a look at our sport and why we are doing it.
I personally believe since at the end of the day, we are racing for a $20-$30 trophy (dust collector) shouldn’t the focus be on FUN and developing the skills of the drivers?Just a thought![/b]
Todd,
I agree with your right to break the seal. What I am asking is common sense to prevail and have an authorized Rotax center oversee and then have the seal replaced. The personnel are here to do that so we’re fortunate, that’s all. SKUSA is removing the option for us rotaxians to race in RMC races (I for one probably won’t race in their series but at least I have the OPTION to do so with my seal)
With SKUSA’s arrogant attitude I’ll be sipping beer or riding my mountain bike with Sam Walls on Nations Cup weekend.
:hit
I’m sorry Dave, I have to disagree. ROTAX is a SEALED motor package. The SEAL is the DEAL. A deal that the motor is spec and not modified.
The CSC needs to recognize the SEAL and if not, then needs to pony up the dollars to return the motor to the driver SEALED. There is NO need for any changes except to recognize the seal. And if there are circumstances that require an inspection, then it needs to be done under the supervision of a Rotax dealer so that it can be re-sealed without major cost to the driver.
And Todd is right, SKUSA does have the right to break the seal, and we drivers have the right to get rid of SKUSA in CO, again. The way I see it, we, the CSC, invited SKUSA to come play, and we, the CSC, can tell them to leave if they do not honor our wishes.
And on top of that, tearing down the 3rd place finisher who qualified almost 2 seconds off of pole is downright STUPID.
If I have any fact wrong here I apologize. It would be nice if Rusty or Dennis would come on here and defend their actions.
Duff
Dennis,
I agree, and have flown the flag since day one, “The Seal is The Deal”.
When I stated allow everyone to inspect the kart’s, I’m not referring to
breaking seals, or doing a tear down.
Just if someone asks, pull the spark plug and let them look in side.
If some one ask, take off the pipe and let them look it over, and look up the exhaust port.
The idea behind the open inspection by competitors is it takes the belly aching out of the event.
They had their own opportinity to see for themselves.
Belly aching OVER.I love this debate, It is WAY overdue. It has been clearly proven over the past 3 years that the Rotax dominates IMI and is highly competitive at GJMS – ADD WEIGHT at these 2 tracks. I would imagine that 15 pounds at IMI and 7 pounds at GJMS would be a great starting point. BUT it is clear that the Rotax is a dog at Bandi and Steamboat so drop the weights at Bandi by 15 pounds and 7 pounds at Steamboat. I am speaking only in average terms because the best drivers even with a slightly over zealous handicap will rise to the top (note I said slightly over zealous). ALSO- outlaw the Sonik.
As to seals. You must be kidding about breaking a seal. The dealers who place those seals on the motors make money and will not under any circumstance jeopardize their dealership. They have no control over where the motor goes and races therefore they don’t know when/if or what sanctioning body will tear down their motor. They are ultimatley responsible for the seal. If a motor is found to be illegal and their seal is on it, they are at jeopardy of losing their entire rotax program….doesn’t really make sense does it….USE COMMON SENSE and this business will take off. At the national events they can and will tear down a sealed rotax motor at times, but those motors are resealed and a reduced cost….big deal.
The only other suggestion I could make would be to follow another serious lead and add weight to the top 5 finishers after each race. This can not be done from track to track, but must be track specific as to the varying charcteristics of each track. IE you can’t add 15 pounds to the winner at IMI (rotax) and expect him to race the next CSC race at Bandi with that disadvantage….
Other than that, Brad can still kiss my ass.
Tom,
In my opinion I don’t think SKUSA is trying to stick it to us Rotax people, they just want to level the playing field and remove the “well he/she is faster than everyone else, they must be cheating” BS. And I want to publically state: Kudos to SKUSA for removing the “they’re cheating” factor. (And all this for a plastic trophy)(personally I like the plates and crystal we’ve gotten for year end…)
I believe that SKUSA’s missing the point of the sealed motor and the fact that the Dane’s; Duff’s; Rich’s; Mike Hurley’s all like to race the RMC races too. And shouldn’t be penalized for it! And that we have not one but TWO rotax centers that, if we asked nicely and paid for the wire and seals, they would probably be happy to oversee the teardown and reseal them. (A novel idea and good publicity for both rotax centers) Now I could see a potential problem if a Welch kart were subject to teardown, they would probably want Stacey to oversee thier engine for reasons we all know and aren’t going to rehash.
Hell Tom, I think I have too much common sense as a business owner to know what’s the right thing to do. I do understand that $2 is a heck of a lot for wire and seals.
Tell you what, Turnbull Mortgage Group will pay for those wires and seals. I know the owner and he says its a done deal to promote karting and in the spirit of hard clean competition. :crazy
BTW… Where’s Jacobellis? Isn’t he the class representative?
How much of your OWN money do you spend racing?
I wouldn’t xxxxx but i don’t have my dad stuffing money into a shifter for me. Sorry to complain. Life sucks. Then you die.[/quote]
Not Sure where this is coming from but your comments don’t seem too cool Streets (that is your real name is’nt it?). Did’nt you call out for some help on the forum last August needing help with your new Tag? If I remember correctly, Ben offering you information and offered you help (in person) if needed. This family will help anyone who needs it. They are not a high budget operation but some of the best quality people in the Series. I have a feeling it is an entire family effort for their racing. Just like us, we’ve made sacrafices in our lifes to do this. Not sure if you race in our Series or how this thread affects you so personally Streets. If you were MY son and had the “Sorry to complain” “Life sucks – Then you die” attitude. I would not be very interested in STUFFING my money into your dreams, hobbies, sports, interest’s… whatever!
If you are trying to race and get your parents support (or anyones elses for that matter) try being positive. It breeds just like the negative, just not as fast.
RickSchemerhorns are really good people who devotedly run our series, I however have not seen you run our series Streets. Maybe you should run the CSC so you have at least some background to say what you have said, however false it may be.
This point of view comes from me, Jim Keesling kart racer.
The whole problem with the “seal” is Rotax drivers WANTING (Needing) to race two series.
One series requires a seal, one does not.I have torn my stock motor down 3 times now, and have put it back together. That’s one of the costs of RACING.
We are in a rock and a hard spot. We have a lot of Rotax motors here in Colorado, and I know you all want to race the two very different series.
At some point in time, the driver needs to decide which is more important.See you all in Steamboat,
JimJim, Todd, etc
I agree that it is sometimes justifiable to want to tear down and inspect a Rotax. If a driver was way ahead of the pack, faster than anyone else, and there was not an explaination, then YES, do an inspection, minimize the costs, but do the teardown. No problem here, and I think all Rotaxians would agree with me.
BUT, from the results page I see,
Zach was almost 2 seconds off of pole and took 3rd place…….
I repeat,
Zach was almost 2 seconds off of pole and took 3rd place….There is NO way you can justify tearing down his motor. I’d like to hear the justification, as I am sure other Rotaxians would too. And not one of those ‘because I can according to the rules’. Tell me WHY you would want to cost this driver ~$300 for a re-seal. Why you believed that he was not in compliance.
Rotaxians aren’t asking for a free ride here or a coupon to pass ‘go’, just some common sense on the $$ expenses.
Duff
Jim,
Apparently you still haven’t grasped the purpose of the seal in the Rotax program and the one reason that the RMC is not plagued with the continued technical scandals of the TaG program. First TaG had to deal with Sonic suitcase motors, then Biland suitcase motors and now the Leopard scam……all because there are no seals and no integrity in the program. You don’t hear RMC – Rotax racers constantly complaining about cheating within the RMC because they respect the integrity of the seal.
The seal is there to assure the Rotax racer that the engines have been manufactured, assembled and serviced to strict technical guidelines that remain within OEM specifications. The seal and the cost of replacing it is also there as a deterent to those who lack the integrity to race within the rules of a spec racing program. Rotax service centers are held to very high standards and risk their business and reputations to participate in the RMC. TaG has already shown us over the last two years that a gentlemans agreement is not going to stop those who insist on a unfair advantage.
The seal should assure promoters outside of the RMC that the engines are within universal specifications and that the competitor lacks the opportunity to make modifications to the cylinder and crankcase. All of the potential performance gains in a Rotax engine are external and should be open to total scutiny. A tech inspector, outside of the RMC is wasting his time and the competitors money to break a Rotax seal; it is inappropriate and punitive.
The Rotax engine was the first TaG package on the market …..long before there was a TaGUSA promotion. TaGUSA adopted the Rotax in to TaG competition knowing and acknowledging that is a sealed engine with competition opportunities outside of TaG competition. So why should it’s position within TaG competition anywhere in the country change?
At least 60% or better of the current CSC TaG classes are Rotaxes……..do you really want to alienate the foundation of the TaG program?
” The Seal IS the Deal !!”
BTW – CRE Motorsports is proud to be an “authorized” Rotax service center, one of only two on the front range. Zach….we will galdly inspect and reseal your engine FREE of charge. Please contact us if we can help out…….The simple solution is to have the Rotax reseal cost paid for by the protesting driver or sanctioning body or track where run ONLY if the Rotax fails inspection. IF the rotax fails inspection, then DQ the driver from the series FOREVER……..The only way to truly implement this requirement is to make it MANDATORY for a rotax to be torn down if a protest is raised. The rotax driver has no say on whether their motor can or can not be inspected. If they dissallow an inspection then this should carry the same lifetime ban.
This will accomplish a few things:
1) If the protesting driver / parent really wants their kid to get a piece of plastic, then they are going to pay a pretty penny for it therefore reducing any politics from racing.
2) If a rotax motor is cheating, they no longer can race in the CSC in any classes.
3) It settles the issue for the rotax drivers because they no longer have to pay for a reseal and at the same time of reseal they can choose to have their top end done, thus giving them a fresh motor pretty much at the other racers expense. The protesting driver only covers the reseal cost.It’s that simple, just implement it.
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