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Mike:
Rodney King is a lying crack head, so please quote someone with a little more clout.This is such :bs: .
See what happens when I am not around 😥 I wish I could have assisted like I always do, but a primary family obligation took prescedence(family reunion in Jamaica) :cheers: . I do plan to be at the SSGP :sun: , just waiting for details to be provided (ie Byron, Angie and Luigi contact me.Be good or I’ll BLACKFLAG YOU ALL!
Just Kidding, to MOST, NOT ALL.
Ian
So everyone seems to be wrong (except me of course). Now that the dust has settled on the sealed / not sealed rotax matters, why not take this opportunity to change the rules as I recommended in an earlier post in regards to the Rotax motors? Wouldn’t it be easier to have a rule that states NO SEALED ROTAX MOTOR CAN BE TORN DOWN WITHOUT COMPENSATION? IF the motor is found to be illegal, then a lifetime ban from CSC will follow….this should include all motors, not just Rotax. If you make the penalty strong enough, cheating will go away. Most racers do this for fun and if there is a chance that their fun can and will be taken away then they won’t cheat. Karting is a self policing sport by nature, we all think the next guy is cheating because he’s faster than me….IE me and my fuel, tires et al. Know the rules, abide by them and enforce them to the fullest extent reasonable. Is it reasonable to ban somebody from being underweight, no. Is it reasonable to ban somebody for improper fuel – maybe. Is it reasonable to ban somebody for an illegal motor – HELL YES!
Next possible choice – Engine claims. If somebody wants to claim a motor following a race (specifically tag and all other spec classes like kid karts and spec shifter) then they should be able to purchase said motor at suggested retail. This will stop the money racing, just like it stops it on the dirt track.
Take my suggestions for what their worth. A past champion and an outside observer. Everybody wants to win, but only the most talented drivers with a bit of luck can win consistantly – take the motors out of the equation.
Also – add weight to the top 5 for the following races at specific tracks…..otherwise you are going to have money racing to the fullest level next year and the years to come in tag racing. Some racers have already posted that they are going to start bringing specific motor packages to specific tracks. Bite it in the ass before it starts. Its obvious that rotax is the best motor at IMI and GJMS, Leopard and Biland at Bandi and Steamboat. What are you going to do when somebody has a lot of money and runs tag and brings a rotax to IMI and GJMS and then switches to Leopard for Bandi and Steamboat? The answer – alot of pissed of racers that can only afford one motor package. Lifes not fair at times, but rules should be in place to level the playing field. A perfect example of this is Rock Island Grand prix in 2003. In the dry a rotax stomped the field. In the wet Bilands rose to the top – why? Because Biland has better bottom end torque and a wider power band. If this sport stopped being firemen and put out the fires aftet they started and more like maintenance personnel and took care of the problem before they started then we would all have more fun.
Jay,
I lived in LA during that time and yes he was a lying crackhead. And he also lost a LOT of weight before his appearance in court. But his saying does have merit…
Dennis,
I like the claimer motor idea I would save a lot on my motor bueprinting. Suggested retail on a comer 80 is around $750. The cost to blueprint these days $1000. I would let my son race a box stock motor for first race and just put a claim on the winning motor. It all sounds good in theory, but with this example alone you will see that doesn’t work. As for the banning of a racer for an illegal motor seems kinda harsh unless its a ported and polished motor in a stock class. Most of us racers send our motors off to be built to the rules, however there are times when a motor gets built and something is not legal. We all asssume to have a legal motor back from a builder, but that isn’t always the case. The place where I personally have seen tech taken very seriously is Stars. They check the top five after qual, pre-final and final. If you have something out of spec you may not get caught the first race but you will get caught. I am not sure what the solution is for those with a sealed motor. I will put in my own two cents though that I think a sealed motor should be subject to tech internally. I could very easily see someone that does not race RMC having a motor built specifically for CSC and having it sealed by someone that knows it won’t be teched.
Brian Moore,
father of Brandon #77 comer 80 and novice shifterP.S. Wish I had a true solution, but also know there are mistakes made with motors that can cause a DQ personally.
Mr. Moore – Believe it or not, your post just adds validity to my suggestions. Spec / Stock / Sealed whats the difference between them and pro shifter if you just send the motors in to be blue printed? Abslutely nothing! The spec series are meant to be just that, spec. No blue printing, no porting, no polishing, no money racing. Just the driver and the equipment competing against the same competitors with the same rules. The more that karting allows and even supports money racing, the more racers get out of it. Keep in mind that this is a hobby, not a career that pays the bills for 99% of the racers involved.
Personally, I don’t think a lifetime ban would be too much. It is going to make you think twice to even ask that engine builder for those special parts. If you think for a minute that Woltjer builds all his Yammies to the same spec, then I’ve got some ocean front property in Arizona for sale….cheap and just for you. I know of 2 karters in particular that have gotten the best of the best from their “name brand” national engine builder. They dyno out between 5-15% more horsepower than even the best motors found. How? Top driving talent, sure….Whole lot of money? Hell yes!
Believe it or not, racing in general has grown exponentially over the past 10-20 years. Karting hasn’t. Why? That’s debatable but from my own personal experience, I found better ways to blow $10 to $30 grand in a year. Way too much politics, way too many kart track owners that couldn’t give a crap about karting, just the money associated with it and way too many other ways to spend my money. Again, take it for whats it worth, i’m on the outside looking in and have no plans of spending my money in karting any time soon.
Dennis,
I have to agree with Bryan on this one. With a sealed motor, any “mistakes” should be the fault of the builder, not the driver. So as Doug points out, it’s possible that a builder might cut things a bit too close on squish–that should be the fault of the builder, and I’d hope the hounds of hell were released on him. But a permanent disqualification of the driver seems over the top. [/u]
@hotwheels1517 wrote:
I am not sure what the solution is for those with a sealed motor. I will put in my own two cents though that I think a sealed motor should be subject to tech internally. I could very easily see someone that does not race RMC having a motor built specifically for CSC and having it sealed by someone that knows it won’t be teched.
It won’t happen. In the case of Rotax, the risks are far too high and the rewards far to low. If you could find a authorized service center to build and seal a special, what is the reward for the sealer? A few hundred bucks? Once the engine leaves his shop, he has no control over it. That means that forever, that motor is out there with his seal on it. If the racer ever sold it and the new guy were to use it in RMax stuff, the potential for it to be torn down is likely.
Contray to popular belief, Rotax engines are reguarly torn down at big deal events. At events like Black Rock, regions cup, or the grand nationals, these engines are usually torn down to the bare crank. The service centers are at huge risk of losing their certification to service Rotax and on top of that, they pay a big fine. Since most karting companies are basically Mom & Pop operations, such a loss would put them out of business.
You point to Stars as an example of quality tech. Who do you think is in charge of Rotax tech, the same man, Scott Evans. That is how they keep a lid on the seal, they tear down and tech the engines. The only place they do not tear down Rotaxs regularly is at local type events, like our CSC. There they respect the seal. But even there, they have a procedure to tech and tear down engines if there is reason to suspect one. It is sent to, you guesed it, Scott Evans. I know of cases where this has been done.
We are lucky here to have a guy like Dennis doing our tech. I’ve known Dennis for years. I first met Dennis when he inspected our motor at the 2000 SuperNationals. He has torn my engines down many times after that. He is fair, honest and he knows the rules. I trust him.
One last comment, if a guy is so egar to cheat on a sealed motor to win a $20 plastic trophy, I say let him have it. Its not worth paying to have my Rotax re-sealed to prove it. At the end of the day, he knows he’s a cheater and so do I.
Joe,
I agree to a point that it is a harsh penalty to pay for an engine builders mistake, but if you read into my post you will understand why I still feel a ban should be warranted: It completly stops the blue printing from the beginning. It stops the money motor, it controls the cost for the racer. IF you want to become a big time racer you need to win races, but are you really winning races just because you have the best motor or the most money? This isn’t hard to spot. And secondly why are you running spec classes just to win? Not many Tag champions are selected for the next level of karting or racing in general. I know of 2 kids who are some of the best drivers in the country but unfortunatley will never get a real shot at the pro ranks because they wasted their youth running yamaha can and pipe classes (spec classes). Yes they have 20+ national championships between them, but they never moved up to shifters and only moved to direct drive last year (at 18 years old). My point being, Tag and spec series are super competitive from the beginnnig if you leave it spec. As soon as money motors get involved, it becomes a waste of time and a pissing match. Ban the cheaters, teach them a lesson and reward the drivers who take the sport for what its worth – a way to spend a good amount of money but get alot more enjoyment if the racing is fair.
I’m out.
Dennis:
Explain what you mean by “money motors in tag”.
Last year I had swedetech “build” us a bone stock, restricted novice 80 motor. I had them do this becuase I was told some off the shelf motors might not pass the head volume rule. This wasn’t worth the risk to me to get caught and be labeled a “cheater”. I had to buy one anyway so I killed 2 birds with 1 stone. Under your idea’s, someone with an off the shelf motor could be banned for life for running a bone stock motor that wasn’t within spec. Brilliant idea.TAGUSA and the Leopard importer are in a political pissing match right now over published specs and tested specs. Joe karter buys one off the shelf gets caught in the middle of this, gets teched and gets banned for life. Brilliant idea.
Is paying a motor builder $150 to make sure your motor is within spec classified as a “money motor”
People make mistakes. Manufactures make mistakes. Banning people for life for these scenarios is wrong.
Bill
I recall at Bandi a tag Jr. Dad ( I believe running a Rotax ) Protested and had us tear down our Biland Jr. engine. We had to pull it all the way to down. We brought it back in 2 box’s. All the way to the crankshaft.
The engine had the factory seal, we tore it down, and did not bitch about it. All of this and the same driver won his shifter race by 10 seconds. It couldn’t be the driver or chassis right ? It has to be the engine. Or the special part that the father saw my brother stick in his pocket while in tech.
We will allways have people complaining that someone has an unfair advantage as long as we race. My point is we had to do it with a sealed engine. Why should noone else have to ? Should we make all competitors bring their W2 forms from the prior year and only tear down the engines of the people that can financialy afford to ?
This is racing. It is expensive. If you win, expect to be torn down. Regardless of what engine you run. Look at how many DQ’s there are every year at the Rotax National Championships. They all have to be sealed yet people still get booted.
Richard
Richard
I have always put the sealed Bilands in with the sealed Rotaxes and the sealed Easykarts. None of the sealed engines should be torn down on the local/regional level except in very unsual cricumstances and the protester should be willing to pay the costs to get the engine re-sealed. To do otherwise is penalizing the driver for being good and that’s a crock.
Your comment about Rotaxs getting tossed while valid, makes it look like they are getting tossed for internal engine violations. On the contray, there have been very few (none that I’m aware of) for internal modifications for which there have been dq’s. There have been many for things like fuel filter location, air box dislocations, non-Rotax fasteners, side pod violations and other non-performance related items. There was a rash of squish violations, mostly due to running too close to spec and carbon buildups putting the engines out and all of them in junior ranks. This violation is be found without tearing the engine apart. In fact, it can’t be found by tearing the engine apart.
You are right about one thing, we do not give the driver and set-up enough credit. At the Red Bull driver search this past week, they used exactly the same kart/engine package and a kid named Alex Speed to drive the karts and guys like Mike Speed and Kimball Williams to set up the karts. With young Mr Speed driving, they had all the karts within just a few tenths. Yet when the driver search kids got in them, they varied 6 seconds!
This year we have torn down many engines under protest and not a single one was found out of spec. What does that tell us? To my knowledge, all the dq’s in this year’s CSC were found without tearing the engines apart. It time to stop this foolishness and start learning how to drive and setup the kart.
Its time to start giving the drivers a little credit for being good.
I agree Doug. I was just making the point that if you are going to tear down a motor, sealed or not, it should not matter how much the person is liked or disliked or if he has big sponsors and money. It should be equal like the class is intended.
The biggest problems seem to be in the Jr. programs. People think that if their kid gets beat someone was cheating. Or the comments are ” if I had as much money as his Dad my son would kick his ass “. People don’t see how much work goes into putting together a top notch race team. We don’t call our engine builder if we are 3 tenths off the guy that beat us that weekend. We just work harder testing. We spend 5 times the money on tires every year than we do updating our engine program.
Alex and Scott Speed are the example. How can you beat a team every weekend when we have jobs and they test 5 days per week. Like when Scott dominated karting. I guess Swedetech is now building cheater engines for Renault and F1. That is why Scott does so well.
I have said it in the past and continue to say ” if you get beat by my driver and think it is the engine come buy it.” Everything we have is for sale.
By the way. I think the 5 guys that beat me at IMI a few weeks ago ALL had cheater motors. It couldn’t be that I am fat and out of shape and drive once every 6 months. I swear they are cheating.
RB
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