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@hotwheels1517 wrote:
Maybe if I was made of money like the other hundred or so karters we could race just for fun too.”yes I do realize most karters are not made of money” but it sounded good so couldn’t resist.
Brian,
I think what you’re hearing is that it would be appreciated if you worked just a bit harder on resisting saying whatever pops into your head. Has it occured to you that just maybe some of the kids you’re dumping on also read your posts? And don’t have the ability to put you into perspective that some of us adults do?
I have to agree with Brian on this one. 😯 I just don’t buy the argument floating around last week on this board and today at the Track that “the racers voted not to race in the rain.”
First, Brad has been especially vocal numerous times on this board that the CSC is not a democracy and that the show is run by the track owners. I don’t agree with that attitude, but you’ve got to admit that he was at least being honest. (Whatever happened to the high-minded concept of “class representatives”?) So how come all of a sudden the racers have a vote? I actually heard one track official berating racers for not bringing rain tires and not being prepared. If we can’t get an answer on this board despite repeated requests, don’t blame the racers. And we wouldn’t have been allowed to use them anyway. (Actually, as Brian points out, the track was only damp and rain tires wouldn’t have been a good idea anyway).
Second, as I said last week and as Brian reiterated, you can’t hold racers responsible for some kind of “vote” at that meeting if it’s not reflected in the official rule book. Not everyone can come to that meeting, and this year in particular it seemed pretty apparent that most of the decisions were being made before the meeting anyway. Doubtful? Go back and look at the postings preceeding the meeting. There was no agenda and certainly no promise that decisions would be made by racers. Again, I’m not saying this is the best approach, but I also recall the arguments by a number of people that racing works best with a benevolent dictatorship. If the CSC is going to publish a rule book, that should be the final word.
Frankly, this was a lousy ending to the season. I hope we can learn from this that we need to be clear about what the rules are so everyone is on the same page about expectations. Let’s quit Mickey Mousing around with a homegrown rule book that is neither complete (for example, there’s nothing in the rule book about weather ending a race, and states that races that are red-flagged before the half-way point shall be continued; as a result race officials were forced to “wing it” today) nor consistent, and adopt a national set of rules that are more completely thought out, that those of us who race multiple series will recognize, and that will be available MUCH earlier in the season. (We can also add some local option exceptions). And then let’s start learning to race in the rain. I can’t help thinking that Nick Neri must have been wondering what the heck is up with us–I’ll bet he has LOTS of experience racing in the rain in Florida! Maybe Doug would be willing to provide a seminar on rain setups–with and without rain tires?? If we are going to wuss out on racing in the rain, let’s have a rain date plan–especially if we’re going to race this late in the season.
P.S. I don’t really buy Brian’s theory that the track ended the race early because they’d already collected our money and the season was over. But I’m still scratching my head over that extended break before the Junior 1 race when it was already beginning to mist/sprinkle–shouldn’t that have been a clue to move ahead as quickly as possible and to shorten races?
G,
I think we’re really pretty much on the same page, so this is not directed at you. But I have to take exception to the comment about ignorance of the rules being no excuse. I agree–and what the rules say is:
9.7.2 Rain tires: The decision to declare a race a rain race is at the discretion of the Race Director. Kid Karts, Jr 1 Comer 80 and Jr 1 Animal classes will not be run under wet conditions. Tires must be manufactured rain tires; No grooved slicks are allowed. When rain conditions are declared for a race, it is at the racers discretion to choose rains or slicks. Rain tires are only optional to use when it has been declared a rain race. The number of sets will be at the Race Directors discretion.
I also agree with you that the rules may be updated. I can find a couple updates/corrections on the CSC website, but none of them said anything about rain tires. If decisions are going to be made at a meeting–something that not every can attend–they need to be reflected in the official rules. That’s my primary point.
Now back to the rain question. Personally, I think we should run races in the rain. I agree with Charles and Rick–we had to run qualifying and pre-final in the rain at the Rotax Grand Nationals and we were at a disadvantage relative to teams that run in the rain routinely (e.g., Florida, the NW). I also understand the argument about this being a regional series and that cost control is important to people, and I can go either way. I just want to know what the call is going to be for Sunday so that I can be prepared. If it rains. Which, after all this hue and cry, probably won’t happen 😉
Not to beat a dead horse, but this is one of the problems with an ad hoc approach to rules and rulebooks. Not everyone attended that meeting; I’m probably not alone in skipping it out of frustration that in past years it was a chaotic waste of time (other than the beer, pizza and chance to see friends.) You can’t hold people responsible for rules they didn’t know about, especially when there’s a rule book that’s supposed to spell things out. :bs:
Fortunately, it’s probably moot, since the forecast for Sunday gives only a 20% of rain. But just in case we need an answer from the officials–what’s the plan in case of rain??!! :idn:
David,
Peter couldn’t make it to the IMI race last week due to a conflict, but will be at Greeley. So if you change your mind, there will AT LEAST be two stock K80s. Let’s hope some of the others that have been talking to Angie show up as well!
Lots of good points here, and it’s too late and I’m too tired to add much. Except for two things:
1) The age range of 7 – 11 is HUGE from a developmental perspective (ask your pediatrician if you don’t believe me). And kids vary a lot in terms of how fast they develop during those four years. Some kids can handle the speed at the lower end of that range, but many can’t (safely). Besides, why do some parents get so hung up with power? Kids should be learning technique, and less power forces them to be smooth to be fast.
2) Let’s not forget that not all Junior 1s come up from the KK class. Kids who have learned technique in KK may be able to handle more speed/power a lot faster than those who have not. If we want to grow karting, we NEED to have a class for newbies. IMHO, the MiniMax ain’t it (and I’m a big supporter of the Mini–for kids who have come up from the lower powered classes).
That’s why I think we need something between the KK class and the Mini Max. Don suggests the restricted Gazelle might fit the bill. I thought it was higher HP, but from what he says, that might be a good solution. Personally, I have nothing against a restricted Animal either, but then I don’t know much about it.
Good discussion–this is the foundation of our sport, so more good ideas and civil discussion can only help for next season. :cheers:
I heard yesterday that the track layout has changed from what is shown on the web site. True? If so, where can it be found?? It would be nice to show up with at least a rough idea for gearing.
Ditto. Two of the three Nationals we’ve attended had at least some rain (though not the monsoon rains that Taylor experienced–thank goodness). Certainly adds a challenge–and the racers from most of the rest of the country are used to it, putting us at a disadvantage.
Michael,
I hope you can take some comfort in knowing that Team Arrow/Rotax made a good showing while awaiting your return to our ranks. Pat took P1 in TaG Junior, while Diz Desanti was doing double duty in the TaG Senior (where he put up a good fight with the young Turks despite some mechanical problems) and TaG Masters classes, where he finished on the podium in P3. :sun:
You were in our collective thoughts not only at the drivers meeting, but through the many racers who were wearing stickers with your name and number, and thanks for the service you’re putting in for all of us. (I believe credit for the stickers goes to Curt Kistler, though I’m sure I’ll be corrected if I’m confused on that point–I’ll blame it on sleep deprivation from the long weekend and drive home!)
Stay safe! :cheers:
@Angie MacEwen wrote:
Yes, they should have been done long ago, I will be the first to admit that. I am not the one that was working on them until recently, so I can only tell you that I am now.
(emphasis added)
Angie, I think you said something very important there. You’re taking all the flak–and frequently apologizing–but this is not solely your responsibility. It would be nice if others stepped up and took some of the responsibility for the delays, rather than letting you get stuck with both the work and the criticism.
I’m also guessing that a lot of us–maybe even you especially–will be much more interested in affiliating with some national organization (e.g., WKA) next year. Then we’d all have the rules in hand and have to find something else to complain about (which, of course, we would!!)
Keep up the good work, Angie!!
Brian has a point. Initially, I was a fan of the box-stock motor as a way to keep costs down, especially for newcomers to the sport (who aren’t yet addicted and willing to deal with the costs of racing). But from what I’ve heard, the problem is that there’s really no way to define “box stock.” As I understand it, an engine builder can put an engine right to specs–without any visible milling or machining–and there would be no way to detect that visually, though it might make for a significant power difference (probably depending on how “good” the motor was to start with.) So I’m not sure if you can remove the “fat wallet” advantage, and you may even make things worse by deluding the honest racers into thinking it’s an even playing field.
It’s also debatable if it really saves money. For us, if we want to race CSC we’d need to get a second motor. I know that for a fact, because we tried racing Stars with our box stock motor and Pat was a good half lap behind at his home track. Then we got a blueprinted K80, and he got the outside pole position at Nationals. Same driver, same chassis, and even without home track advantage. I’m sure Ben Whetstone, Brian Moore, James Michael-Sullivan and others could tell similar stories. So it’s only cheaper for racers who choose to limit themselves to one track. Of course, that might be a sizable group if it applied to all the CSC tracks.
That’s why I like Brad’s (perhaps off-hand) suggestion about a Honda motor program for Junior 1s. Those of us who also want to race at CRE can use our sealed motors there, and switch for CSC events. Those who want to race Stars can do likewise with their blueprinted motors. And newbies who aren’t sure what they want to do can avoid sticker shock. That might be a very important point given what appears to be a dwindling number of entry Junior drivers. On the other hand, it once again puts Colorado outside the mainstream, and makes it more difficult for those who want to race nationally (primarily, Stars). No perfect solutions, but I personally think this might be a good one.
P.S. As an aside, in order to race Stars I purchased a Woltjer blueprinted K80 sight unseen off eBay for $900, including a kart and lots of spare parts. I had it freshened up by Woltjer for about the same amount, we raced it at Stars, and then I sold it for $900. To Sage Karam, who then used it to win a couple national championships and recently had an ad here on Colorado Karter, wanting $4000 😯 for it!!! Now that my younger son is showing more interest in racing, I’m really kicking myself for selling it!!! But, frankly, $4K for a K80 is just crazy–but some desperate dad will pay it. That’s where this “the sky’s the limit” mentality can take us.
Regarding the Junior 1 program, we’ve limited ourselves to CRE because its too expensive to have both a box stock sealed K80 and a blueprinted one. If CRE and CSC could agree on the parameters of a box-stock motor, Peter would probably race CSC as well. Yet I also see the problems with a box stock program, and especially for those (like Brian) who want to run Stars as well. In that regard, Brad’s idea of a Honda loaner program for Junior 1s would be a great solution.
We may not have a dog in this, but I thought we learned that Animals, Comers and mini-Maxes don’t mix (remember the opening race at GJMS last year? 😯 ). There’s just too much difference in speed to have them safely on the track at the same time.
I just re-read my reply and realized I may have mis-stated something. I said “all” Juniors are required to have the SFI-certified chest protector. Actually, I think there’s an age limit–maybe 12??–for that requirement, so Rotax Juniors, for example, are not required to have one. As I understand it, WKA requires them for the Junior Sportsman (K80) class, and RMC requires them for Mini-Max (and “encourages” them for Rotax Junior). If anyone’s kids fall in other potential areas, you’d be better off checking the WKA rulebook or asking George than relying on me!! Or just wear one anyway and be extra safe!
