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Don
One of the best posts I’ve seen on this subject.
Just one thing I’d like to point out. The Rotax is a world formula. The rules for it are universal in every country. As a person moves up and the kid grows older, you keep the same engine package. You get to keep all your spares.
As a Dad who started with Briggs flatheads at IMI and moved up through dozens (it seems like) of different formulas, every time we moved up a class, I gave the guy who bought my old stuff a $1,000+ worth of “useless” (to me) spares. If Rotax had been available, I would have gone that route.
Rotax Max is the 3rd largest sanctioning body in the country, behind IKF and WKA. At the rate Rotax is growing, next year it will be the second largest. There are over 5,000 engines in the country. If you’re so inclined, you can take your MinMax or any other Rotax to a real national championship. Potentially, you can take it to a World Championship. Not one of the other available alternatives offer such choices or opportunities.
One last thing, Rotax comes with a warrenty.
Don,
The Mini Max is already restricted intake and exhaust. Jim has 2 Gazelles (I believe one is restricted, one not) that he is putting on some Cadet chassis, so we will have a chance to see how they perform.The Mini Max is here to stay, especially with the RMax Challenge growing in this region.
The Animals were welcomed into the CSC with open arms. We knew going in that this was another class for a similar age group, but the numbers were supposedly so high, that it was ok. And, they were to run on the track with the Mini Maxes, as the times were so similar, but that plan went out the window, too.
I don’t think it is fair to put the cost of an Animal at $600. How many of them out there that have only $600 in them? I don’t think so. And most of the Animal racers have a spare engine, right? so then double it. How much is a Jim Bennet Animal? then double that – you are close to Mini Max territory now.
The K80 deal was just an attempt to keep SOMETHING in the structure for the kids coming out of KK. The Animal used to be an OK step, but over the past few years, they have gotten faster and faster, until it is as fast as a Mini Max. That is too big of a jump for a kid. I don’t know that the stock sealed program in the answer, but I do know that I have been getting more calls of interest for it than I ever did with the built class. I am sure that if we had “our ducks in a row” and had announced it sooner, there would be more participation in the class. The stock sealed program has been running successfully down at CRE for several years, and I have yet to have anyone that participated in that program to complain. It may be slow growing, but I think as kids move up, it will be fine. If we had a better, low cost, reliable (Honda) solution, it would be something to look at, but I am sure there would be lots of screaming about that, too.
Anyway, part of the glory of the CSC is that it does emcompass the spectrum of classes from Kid Karts to the top levels of Shifter and TaG. Leaving a gaping hole in the structure is no good. I am not going to take Courtney or Wyatt, and take them from KK to MM, no way (even though Wyatt keeps asking to drive it, cuz he can reach the pedals already!)
Kid Karts 5-7
K80 7-10 ( adjust down from 11 to 10 with the stock program)
Mini Max 9-13, Novice 80 Shifter 9-13
TaG Jr 12-15, Junior 80 Shifter 12-15
TaG Sr 15+, 125 Shifters 15+, Briggs Mod 15+What is the problem with that? The only thing I see is if we find a better solution for the K80.
I know some would say that the Briggs Mod should be dropped, but they had more karts on the track than the Pro Shifters!Doug, you should have also pointed out the very successful Club Mini Max program in FL. If we could get something like that here – the numbers would skyrocket!
angie
I know some would say that the Briggs Mod should be dropped, but they had more karts on the track than the Pro Shifters! 😯
Briggs Mod… Isn’t that the “paint drying” class 8)
Don, great way to start the debate and your information helps immensely. No whining, just questions with facts to back it up. Bravo!
Angie, you and I have had this conversation in private and in public. This is CSC politics; you are very good and very tactical and hopefully I can return the favor. First let me say thank you for letting us rednecks, i.e., the Animal class in CSC this year. I am not intentionally trying to upset you or anyone else, but what I am trying to do, if at all possible, is get some questions answered and direction defined for this particular class. And finally, when I refer to ?you? I don?t mean just Angie, but CSC, you know, the “ROYAL” you. Actually I am optimistic about Colorado karting as long as CSC steps up and becomes a leader and let me explain that.
Read any national article relating ?the trouble with karting? and you will read within it that there are too many class with too few numbers and the always ever present ?cost of karting? aspect. So what I am trying to say here is let CSC continue to be a leader and attempt to fix those issues within our great state if at all possible.
Hey, the mini, is the favor of the week so to speak, and I am not trying to kill the mini as much as to get some sort of concrete plan for this age group. Why have three clutch kart classes, why have additional track time and tech during racing because of it?? Why risk safety issue involved with running two of the three classes together? Why not then just pick the mini? I think you know why and let me explain while trying to respond to some of your questions/points.
Angie first I am happy to hear that Jim is experimenting with the Gazelle and if Conner and I can be of help Jim let us know, but honestly are we introducing another motor package within this age group or is CSC going to go with just the Gazelle or is Jim going to make the Gazelle his motor of choice for his track only?? What?s the plan?
I will and have admitted that if you want to race national you are better off in the mini or perhaps the Gazelle, but look at the small percentage that actually due race nationally. Perhaps now the numbers will improve some because of the Rmax challenge running thru more tracks within the state and then again, maybe they won?t. Angie take a poll, look around and listen to the experience of Brad, cost is a significant issue. For most of us (90% a guess) and I think the numbers show this; this IS a hobby for most of us, and thus we have BUDGETS and most of us would like to run at a national event, but realize that just ain?t gonna happen. Sorry, but currently I think this is set up as a zero sum game. You grow CSC you hurt local track numbers, unless you obtain more Colorado karters. Look at the numbers this year, I bet that I am like most who can?t afford in either time or money to run all track races and all CSC races. So what am I saying, shouldn?t we all be working on growing the total numbers of karting within each of our classes? Doesn?t a class with 20 to 30 karts look and feel better than three classes composed of 2, 6 or even 8?? Without a plan out beyond the next CSC event how can one lead.
Several have talked about how we should have a ?stepping stone? approach to kart racing in Colorado. Start out in local track races and then moving up to CSC. This sounds great! Is that where the Animal fits in, is this where the Honda fits in at only local club races? Again, what is the plan? If there is no plan can we start one (I am more than willing to help)?? Can?t the-powers-that- be just pick one motor here within the state or is it all just about numbers and money? If the CSC is the echelon of Colorodo karting why have a ?stepping stone? class in it at all? Shouldn?t that be done at the track level?? Leave this ?sealed-stock? 80k motor at the club level and once the kid is up to speed they can move back into the CSC with a mini. But again more importantly, why even bother with the ?sealed stock? 80k? Why do we keep changing motors every several years and thus increase the cost for this age group? Just pick one motor to do both jobs. That is unless Brad is really going to furnish the Hondas for this age group.
Here is a question for you that I don?t understand: last year you killed the Animal class cause only two signed up, you wanted to save time on race day, and didn?t want to tech the Animal where some of the reasoning you told me. You didn?t even give it two races to see if the numbers improved, but yet, check out the 80 Comer class this year, with only one signed up and with two races completed and only two have shown up so far?what happened to meeting the minimum of 6 per class rule?? And yet they are allowed to exist, why? cause you killed two birds with one stone by moving the Animal class in with them (this way Animals don?t interfere with the minis while you can justify keep the K80 class around). If you are concerned with safety what gives here?? Just wait until the tighter tracks come. Angie, are you willing to bet, that if you decide on just one motor for this class next year that your numbers might actually increase within this class, competition will increase while at the same time you will decreasing tech issues and race day time. Seriously what am I missing?
Because CSC is sitting on the fence on this, I think it is hurting this sport within this age group. Are you debating my logic on just one motor package and one class? Are you afraid to make the mini the only motor? Why not have just the one clutch, kart class for this age group within the CSC? Is that because you know the numbers might just drop within CSC for those who can?t afford the mini? If that is the case maybe the mini shouldn’t be the motor of choice for the CSC for this age group or perhaps it should be?
Regarding the cost of the Animal at $600 is that fair?? Angie are you talking to anyone in the Junior 1, Animal class?? Currently, half the class is running a ?true? stock Animal, so yes it is pretty close if not exact. Now regarding a Bennett motor since you seem to doubt me, call him and ask, but I can easily pruchase two of his NEW motors and have enough money left over for a couple of set of MG tires for the price of the minimax motor. Are you really trying to make a case that up front cost of a minimax is competitive with that of an Animal?? What point where you trying to prove with the question about having multiple Animal motors? That I shouldn’t have bought the three Animal motors over a three year period AND had each of them blueprinted and instead just purchased ONE minimax motor for about the same cost that I spent over a three year period?? (what, you want my wife to divorce me?? :idn: ) Angie I concede the point that the mini has a path into Tag Jr and beyond and with Rmax Challenge within the state it is a tempting package, but give me a break that doesn?t change the comparison of up front and regular maintenance costs between this two motor packages (just look at the difference in each classes cliental).
Summary:
Angie I don?t want to debate the merits of 4-cycle verse 2-cycle with you; it has been done. BTW, I think you will lose?. 😉 I just want to consolidate the numbers for the growth of this class and thus go back to the way it was. Why can?t there be just one motor package for this age group within CSC? Why can?t the other motor packages and proposed ?stepping stone? motors be left at the local track level? We should be able to find the all-in-one motor package for all concerns here, but because of politics among track owners unfortunately I realize that will never happen and yet there is still enough wiggle room to improve the current situation. By going to one class and/or one motor package for next year don’t we also help the current participants, other classes, CSC and local tracks??@Greg Johnson wrote:
Thats “fast paint drying” .. not to be confused w/ the silver spoon classes.
Did someone confuse us slo-pros with you quick dry’s?
Greg,
Hopefully you are just poking fun and not upset with the comment I made last week. If you are pissed, give me a call at 303-901-2984.Hey Greg, that’s a stainless steel spoon i have. Get it right!
Oh and by the way Curt was saying your all a bunch of mamby pamby’s 8)
Joking, joking… Good job Sunday BTW…
Lots of good points here, and it’s too late and I’m too tired to add much. Except for two things:
1) The age range of 7 – 11 is HUGE from a developmental perspective (ask your pediatrician if you don’t believe me). And kids vary a lot in terms of how fast they develop during those four years. Some kids can handle the speed at the lower end of that range, but many can’t (safely). Besides, why do some parents get so hung up with power? Kids should be learning technique, and less power forces them to be smooth to be fast.
2) Let’s not forget that not all Junior 1s come up from the KK class. Kids who have learned technique in KK may be able to handle more speed/power a lot faster than those who have not. If we want to grow karting, we NEED to have a class for newbies. IMHO, the MiniMax ain’t it (and I’m a big supporter of the Mini–for kids who have come up from the lower powered classes).
That’s why I think we need something between the KK class and the Mini Max. Don suggests the restricted Gazelle might fit the bill. I thought it was higher HP, but from what he says, that might be a good solution. Personally, I have nothing against a restricted Animal either, but then I don’t know much about it.
Good discussion–this is the foundation of our sport, so more good ideas and civil discussion can only help for next season. :cheers:
Don,
First, let me say that although rumors are obviously flying, there has been no official talk of cutting the Jr 1 Animal. However, I think you are right to assume that something has to be done about the multiple Jr 1 Classes. The first part of that has happened, but making the K80 stock, and dropping it to a level below the Mini Max and the Animal.You are right, you and I have discussed this.
The Junior 1 Animal Class did have its day. There were larger fields. Did the Mini Max really kill it? No, I don’t think so. Kids moved up out of it, into TaG, Shifter, or struggled with trying to race a Jr 2 4Cycle. How many of the then Animal racers moved to a Mini Max. I can think of one, Cole. Maybe a few, like the Farleys and Sullivans, decided to move to K80 to do the Stars thing.The CSC did drop the Animal after the first event last year. Not because there were only 2 at the race, but because those were the only 2 that had signed up for the CSC. At that time I did not have any phone calls, emails, or anything, from people interested in future events. If we had gotten 10 membership apps, and only 2 showed at the first event, at least we would have known that it would be bigger as the season went on. And, if it had been the only class offered for that age group, then it would have been more of an issue.
So, why aren’t we doing the same to the K80? Because it is an important piece of the class structure. Now, if you are saying that the Animal could be an engine package that for $600 could be taken out of the box, sealed without having mods, and maybe restricted to bring it to the speed of the stock K80, then maybe it is worth looking at.
The stock sealed K80 program has been run successfully, and can be good here given the chance. And if there is a better, reasonable engine package out there for this class, then we should be looking at it. I don?t know, maybe Brad is already looking at Honda for that step. But I do know that we have to have a class in place for the age group between Kid Karts and Mini Maxes, and the Animal right now is not at that level.
Jim’s Gazelles are going to be rentals, I believe, but are going on good Birel cadet chassis, and will at least let us have a first hand view of what they can do. That is it. There has been no talk of adding a class, or anything else. I just thought I would mention it, because you brought it up. I don’t think it is going to be anything for the age group we are trying to grow, but I have never seen them run firsthand.
I did not mean to debate the cost factor of the engines. I was just questioning the validity of your stating that an Animal could be purchased for $600 and be competitive. Seeing engines for sale for 900-1000, and some of those are front runners in the class, it made me want to clarify what the $600 got you. If an out of the box Animal is competitive, then why the extra dollars? I will not argue that the Mini Max is a better deal. Each has its own pros and cons. I think that the Mini Max program is going to continue to grow, and it is certainly fun to watch. I am sorry that you are disappointed that the Animals were moved out of the group with them. I didn?t have anything to do with that decision, as we were familiar with running Animals and Mini Maxes together at IMI club events. It is hard to blame the K80s for anything in the Animal class when there were a few of the Animals that were slower than the K80s. I do agree, though, that in general, they should not be run together, if possible.
I don?t like your idea of simply sending the K80s back to the club level. Let?s go race the CSC with Kid Karts, then have to quit that to go back to club only until ready for Mini Max? That hardly seems right.
I am pretty sure that there are people out there that think the CSC would be fine without any of the Kid or Jr classes. That, of course, would count me out all together. It is important for the Junior classes to be grown carefully. That is the future of the sport. Get them hooked young. How is that going to happen if there is no class for a beginner 9 year old that is not ready for the speed of a Mini Max? Or a kid that is 7 going on 8 moving out of Kid Karts. Yes, practice and seat time. But how far do they get before being burned out on that. The race day competition feeds the desire to go back and practice more. A Kid Kart racer could practice in Mini Max all off season, but going from 35mph to 55+ mph is huge. And now in a bigger chassis, with rolling starts. They will learn, but there desire will die if you send them from racing at the CSC back to local races only.
I do not disagree with the fact that the evolution of our class structure is not the most beautiful thing to watch. If you look back at what I proposed for next year, it does not include 3 clutch classes for the same age group. There is one class for 5-7, one for 7-10( or 11), and then it branches out to include the TaG and Shifter ranks with Mini Max and Novice Shifter. I personally think that structure makes sense, and without continually changing it every year, it will grow.
I wonder how many Kid Karters are planning on moving up next year? Which class do you plan to go to?
I know that this is personal for you Don, and I understand (I really do) the amount of work you have done building rules and doing research. But since you agree that we have too many classes for the 9-12 year olds, you have to understand that unfortunately the Animal is going to lose out to the Mini Max. I think the Animal is still a great package for a family to use to get some seat time and decide if racing is for them, by attending club events. But then the step to the CSC would mean changing to a Mini Max.
Angie, Don…….who ever.
What karting in Colorado needs is a long term plan for all the classes. Every year that we have been involved the engine package and or class has changed and not always for the best. If a family came to me and asked me what class should they start out in, I’m not sure how I would answer that………..We need a competition committee to help set the direction for years to come. ❗
Mikey, owner, crew chief, truck driver, umbrella guy for Tyler #45 Juinor 1 Animal and Sydney #44 Tag Jr. ooooooo and coolest hat on the grid :cheers:
Did anyone notice that Mikey’s pith helmet was in the feature article on ekartingnews yesterday? They specifically asked for a shot of it, after hearing the rumours.
I will weigh in on this subject later, I promise; it’s too complex to handle during lunch.
Just my two cents worth, but all three of my boys engines are just that, box stock animals for under 600, and being just newbies they had some very good battles with both the one mod k80 and the other stock k80. I look forward to hearing where we go with the classes in the CSC and I understand that racing costs money but keeping the costs down would benefit all.
Chris, Connor, Colin and Cameron Wogrin
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