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I have some comments, observations, and thoughts regarding the Junior 1 class over the last several years of my son racing in it that I would like to express since there seems to be some major changes coming for this class next year:
HISTORY:
Before the Junior 1 class was splintered in 05, there were 24 kids in that class in 04 (Truly, isn?t that better then than what we have now? It for sure is easier teching and helping to ease the already tight time constraints that we are currently experiencing). It is my belief that there needs to be just one class once again (it was a bad idea then and a bad idea now to split them up). I realize not everyone will agree upon the engine package, especially that track owners, but IMHO it still needs to be done. But whatever is decided upon please don?t announce it a month or two before the season starts next year; although, CSC may not have their ducks in a row by then, many of the racers/parents do. If nothing else announce this type of decision mid-season this year thus giving everyone time within this class to think about it, discuss it (argue, moan, etc), adjust to it and then make their final decisions.Perhaps the best choice is to throw out all current packages and go with TAG Cadet class based upon the Gazelle (which I believe offers several other engine packages to choose from just like the other TAG classes currently do, just to help to muck things up again I guessing) or maybe go with Hondas, but with Rotax challenge here at three tracks now???, I understand the cards are stack in favor of the Rotax package. Anyway, choosing this course of action of selecting just one motor package may upset some racers initially, but more likely just track owners, this course of action has to be better than what we currently have now.
Anway, below is a list of ?today?s? engine packages with some stats:
80 Comer
($825, 8HP), this motor is at the end of it?s life cycle, no place to run a ?sealed? version outside CSC and CRE, and as Hotwheels so eloquently pointed out, if the stock 50 Comer motors have all this variability between them that it forces everyone to blueprint them to get them on a level playing field again, thus being one of the reasons (costs) driving CSC/Brad to go to the Honda motor, why is CSC basing a class that will be running the 50cc Comer?s off-the-shelf ?big brother? version? (Seriously what is CSC thinking? Jim Bennett from Racer?s Edge has tested several of these ?stock? 80 Comer motors and says there is noticeable difference in HP between them before blueprinting??)Animals
($600 and 11HP the way we run them here), people don?t seem to like them here except for those who run them, even though their performance to cost ratio is very good. Unfortunately it has not formally been announced but it is looking like the Junior 1 Animal class dies after this year in CSC.Honda
($?, similar to Animal?, ??HP), another 4 cycle so the odds already seem stacked against it; I know very little about their parts cost, but they may provide even a better performance to cost ratio than the Animal, but if nothing else they should be somewhat equivalent (Now if Brad does provide them next year as he is hinting about and depending on which version this may be greatest thing to happen to this age group, but depending on the final plan this may cause even a larger firestorm than the baby kart program. Imagine a Honda only class for this age group? can you just imagine the tension among the track owners. Hey, maybe the Hondas can replace the 80 Comer motors for the slower version of the Junior class while still keeping the faster minmax class too?? Ugh?).World Formula
($1050, the Animal?s big brother if you will, 14 to 15 HP on pump gas), comes with everything (motor, exhaust pipe, clutch, air filter) except for motor mount, muffler and battery. Best feature in my opinion a ?sealed? rev limit, 7100 rpm. (FYI: similar horsepower range as the minimax). This is an electric start, air cooled motor. (Electric start motor?. I?m drooling?..) Hands down this is the motor package giving the most bang for the buck that is if you want your kids to run fast as the minimaxes.IAME Gazelle
($1700, ??HP) this motor is easily configured between the restricted and unrestricted version. I am told that the restricted version is very similar to 80 Comer motor in performance and the unrestricted to the minimax. This is the other electric start ? air cooled motor.Minimax
($2650, 14.5HP but Barry from Billet says he is getting 17HP at the wheel on one). This is a sealed motor, except in CSC?? and this is electric start and liquid cooled package. Again, now that several tracks in the state are running Rmax challenge series this at least makes this motor more viable even if the cost doesn?t.COMPARISONS:
You can seal any of these motors or not have seals at all on any (things that make you go hmmm, CSC requires a seal on a non-sealed motor (80 Comer) and yet you don?t have to have a seal on a sealed motor (minimax) for CSC???), and regarding reliability, please they are race motors (I have seen a minimax and Comer motors blow just as easily as the Animal.) and contrary to what Brad has said many of us have ran the Animal all year without throwing a rod. In terms of speed, the slowest to fastest, would go something like Comer, restricted Gazelle, Honda/Animal, and unrestricted Gazelle then probably World Formula and minimax. The minimax is the only liquid cooled package and the minimax, World Formula and Gazelle are the only TAG (Touch and Go, i.e., electric start, very cool feature to some of the Dads and kids). Regarding the idea of slowing them down and forming an ?entry level? Junior 1 class, I know besides the Gazelle both the Animal and I would bet Hondas have ?WKA? intake restrictor plates that can easily be installed and removed.Regarding the concern of having a ?slower, kinder, and more gentle? Junior 1 class because the minimaxs are so fast, (isn?t that saying something in itself?), that there is need for some kind of ?stepping stone class? between the minimax and kid kart class, i.e., a ?stock, sealed? comer class, personally, to resolve this issue in my opinion is just tons of practicing/seat time for your kid, but for those who want two classes, instead of spending $850 on a Comer and two years late spending $2650 for a minimax motor, why not just pick one motor and have it in a restricted (intake, gearing, etc) and unrestricted version?? Even if the final package is the minimax motor, can?t an intake restrictor be designed for it? Or, is this where purposed Honda class fits in??
SUMMARY:
Since Brad pointed out the most obvious factors in karting is cost, cost and cost, I would have thought that CSC might just factored that in to the equation a little better. Anyway it seems pretty obvious to me, although the reasoning behind it is not, that the 4 cycles are out, although from the aspect of cost-performance ratio they are probably the best solution. Honestly at this point I am tried of the politics, the BS, illogical ratiocination and so I as a parent of a Junior 1 driver, I really don?t care which motor is picked as long as one is and preferable they go back to just one class too for Junior 1s.Really, isn?t it obvious that the very best scenario for the Junior class is to have just one motor? And if there really is a need to have a ?slower-stepping stone class,? just restrict that ONE motor??
CONCLUSION:
I wrote this cause the class is near and dear to me and I have spent a lot of time and money on it, and I DO want to stir the waters a bit in hope to at least to find out what is coming and why and at best to help influence the outcome.Don
One of the best posts I’ve seen on this subject.
Just one thing I’d like to point out. The Rotax is a world formula. The rules for it are universal in every country. As a person moves up and the kid grows older, you keep the same engine package. You get to keep all your spares.
As a Dad who started with Briggs flatheads at IMI and moved up through dozens (it seems like) of different formulas, every time we moved up a class, I gave the guy who bought my old stuff a $1,000+ worth of “useless” (to me) spares. If Rotax had been available, I would have gone that route.
Rotax Max is the 3rd largest sanctioning body in the country, behind IKF and WKA. At the rate Rotax is growing, next year it will be the second largest. There are over 5,000 engines in the country. If you’re so inclined, you can take your MinMax or any other Rotax to a real national championship. Potentially, you can take it to a World Championship. Not one of the other available alternatives offer such choices or opportunities.
One last thing, Rotax comes with a warrenty.
Don,
The Mini Max is already restricted intake and exhaust. Jim has 2 Gazelles (I believe one is restricted, one not) that he is putting on some Cadet chassis, so we will have a chance to see how they perform.The Mini Max is here to stay, especially with the RMax Challenge growing in this region.
The Animals were welcomed into the CSC with open arms. We knew going in that this was another class for a similar age group, but the numbers were supposedly so high, that it was ok. And, they were to run on the track with the Mini Maxes, as the times were so similar, but that plan went out the window, too.
I don’t think it is fair to put the cost of an Animal at $600. How many of them out there that have only $600 in them? I don’t think so. And most of the Animal racers have a spare engine, right? so then double it. How much is a Jim Bennet Animal? then double that – you are close to Mini Max territory now.
The K80 deal was just an attempt to keep SOMETHING in the structure for the kids coming out of KK. The Animal used to be an OK step, but over the past few years, they have gotten faster and faster, until it is as fast as a Mini Max. That is too big of a jump for a kid. I don’t know that the stock sealed program in the answer, but I do know that I have been getting more calls of interest for it than I ever did with the built class. I am sure that if we had “our ducks in a row” and had announced it sooner, there would be more participation in the class. The stock sealed program has been running successfully down at CRE for several years, and I have yet to have anyone that participated in that program to complain. It may be slow growing, but I think as kids move up, it will be fine. If we had a better, low cost, reliable (Honda) solution, it would be something to look at, but I am sure there would be lots of screaming about that, too.
Anyway, part of the glory of the CSC is that it does emcompass the spectrum of classes from Kid Karts to the top levels of Shifter and TaG. Leaving a gaping hole in the structure is no good. I am not going to take Courtney or Wyatt, and take them from KK to MM, no way (even though Wyatt keeps asking to drive it, cuz he can reach the pedals already!)
Kid Karts 5-7
K80 7-10 ( adjust down from 11 to 10 with the stock program)
Mini Max 9-13, Novice 80 Shifter 9-13
TaG Jr 12-15, Junior 80 Shifter 12-15
TaG Sr 15+, 125 Shifters 15+, Briggs Mod 15+What is the problem with that? The only thing I see is if we find a better solution for the K80.
I know some would say that the Briggs Mod should be dropped, but they had more karts on the track than the Pro Shifters!Doug, you should have also pointed out the very successful Club Mini Max program in FL. If we could get something like that here – the numbers would skyrocket!
angie
I know some would say that the Briggs Mod should be dropped, but they had more karts on the track than the Pro Shifters! 😯
Briggs Mod… Isn’t that the “paint drying” class 8)
Don, great way to start the debate and your information helps immensely. No whining, just questions with facts to back it up. Bravo!
Angie, you and I have had this conversation in private and in public. This is CSC politics; you are very good and very tactical and hopefully I can return the favor. First let me say thank you for letting us rednecks, i.e., the Animal class in CSC this year. I am not intentionally trying to upset you or anyone else, but what I am trying to do, if at all possible, is get some questions answered and direction defined for this particular class. And finally, when I refer to ?you? I don?t mean just Angie, but CSC, you know, the “ROYAL” you. Actually I am optimistic about Colorado karting as long as CSC steps up and becomes a leader and let me explain that.
Read any national article relating ?the trouble with karting? and you will read within it that there are too many class with too few numbers and the always ever present ?cost of karting? aspect. So what I am trying to say here is let CSC continue to be a leader and attempt to fix those issues within our great state if at all possible.
Hey, the mini, is the favor of the week so to speak, and I am not trying to kill the mini as much as to get some sort of concrete plan for this age group. Why have three clutch kart classes, why have additional track time and tech during racing because of it?? Why risk safety issue involved with running two of the three classes together? Why not then just pick the mini? I think you know why and let me explain while trying to respond to some of your questions/points.
Angie first I am happy to hear that Jim is experimenting with the Gazelle and if Conner and I can be of help Jim let us know, but honestly are we introducing another motor package within this age group or is CSC going to go with just the Gazelle or is Jim going to make the Gazelle his motor of choice for his track only?? What?s the plan?
I will and have admitted that if you want to race national you are better off in the mini or perhaps the Gazelle, but look at the small percentage that actually due race nationally. Perhaps now the numbers will improve some because of the Rmax challenge running thru more tracks within the state and then again, maybe they won?t. Angie take a poll, look around and listen to the experience of Brad, cost is a significant issue. For most of us (90% a guess) and I think the numbers show this; this IS a hobby for most of us, and thus we have BUDGETS and most of us would like to run at a national event, but realize that just ain?t gonna happen. Sorry, but currently I think this is set up as a zero sum game. You grow CSC you hurt local track numbers, unless you obtain more Colorado karters. Look at the numbers this year, I bet that I am like most who can?t afford in either time or money to run all track races and all CSC races. So what am I saying, shouldn?t we all be working on growing the total numbers of karting within each of our classes? Doesn?t a class with 20 to 30 karts look and feel better than three classes composed of 2, 6 or even 8?? Without a plan out beyond the next CSC event how can one lead.
Several have talked about how we should have a ?stepping stone? approach to kart racing in Colorado. Start out in local track races and then moving up to CSC. This sounds great! Is that where the Animal fits in, is this where the Honda fits in at only local club races? Again, what is the plan? If there is no plan can we start one (I am more than willing to help)?? Can?t the-powers-that- be just pick one motor here within the state or is it all just about numbers and money? If the CSC is the echelon of Colorodo karting why have a ?stepping stone? class in it at all? Shouldn?t that be done at the track level?? Leave this ?sealed-stock? 80k motor at the club level and once the kid is up to speed they can move back into the CSC with a mini. But again more importantly, why even bother with the ?sealed stock? 80k? Why do we keep changing motors every several years and thus increase the cost for this age group? Just pick one motor to do both jobs. That is unless Brad is really going to furnish the Hondas for this age group.
Here is a question for you that I don?t understand: last year you killed the Animal class cause only two signed up, you wanted to save time on race day, and didn?t want to tech the Animal where some of the reasoning you told me. You didn?t even give it two races to see if the numbers improved, but yet, check out the 80 Comer class this year, with only one signed up and with two races completed and only two have shown up so far?what happened to meeting the minimum of 6 per class rule?? And yet they are allowed to exist, why? cause you killed two birds with one stone by moving the Animal class in with them (this way Animals don?t interfere with the minis while you can justify keep the K80 class around). If you are concerned with safety what gives here?? Just wait until the tighter tracks come. Angie, are you willing to bet, that if you decide on just one motor for this class next year that your numbers might actually increase within this class, competition will increase while at the same time you will decreasing tech issues and race day time. Seriously what am I missing?
Because CSC is sitting on the fence on this, I think it is hurting this sport within this age group. Are you debating my logic on just one motor package and one class? Are you afraid to make the mini the only motor? Why not have just the one clutch, kart class for this age group within the CSC? Is that because you know the numbers might just drop within CSC for those who can?t afford the mini? If that is the case maybe the mini shouldn’t be the motor of choice for the CSC for this age group or perhaps it should be?
Regarding the cost of the Animal at $600 is that fair?? Angie are you talking to anyone in the Junior 1, Animal class?? Currently, half the class is running a ?true? stock Animal, so yes it is pretty close if not exact. Now regarding a Bennett motor since you seem to doubt me, call him and ask, but I can easily pruchase two of his NEW motors and have enough money left over for a couple of set of MG tires for the price of the minimax motor. Are you really trying to make a case that up front cost of a minimax is competitive with that of an Animal?? What point where you trying to prove with the question about having multiple Animal motors? That I shouldn’t have bought the three Animal motors over a three year period AND had each of them blueprinted and instead just purchased ONE minimax motor for about the same cost that I spent over a three year period?? (what, you want my wife to divorce me?? :idn: ) Angie I concede the point that the mini has a path into Tag Jr and beyond and with Rmax Challenge within the state it is a tempting package, but give me a break that doesn?t change the comparison of up front and regular maintenance costs between this two motor packages (just look at the difference in each classes cliental).
Summary:
Angie I don?t want to debate the merits of 4-cycle verse 2-cycle with you; it has been done. BTW, I think you will lose?. 😉 I just want to consolidate the numbers for the growth of this class and thus go back to the way it was. Why can?t there be just one motor package for this age group within CSC? Why can?t the other motor packages and proposed ?stepping stone? motors be left at the local track level? We should be able to find the all-in-one motor package for all concerns here, but because of politics among track owners unfortunately I realize that will never happen and yet there is still enough wiggle room to improve the current situation. By going to one class and/or one motor package for next year don’t we also help the current participants, other classes, CSC and local tracks??@Greg Johnson wrote:
Thats “fast paint drying” .. not to be confused w/ the silver spoon classes.
Did someone confuse us slo-pros with you quick dry’s?
Greg,
Hopefully you are just poking fun and not upset with the comment I made last week. If you are pissed, give me a call at 303-901-2984.Hey Greg, that’s a stainless steel spoon i have. Get it right!
Oh and by the way Curt was saying your all a bunch of mamby pamby’s 8)
Joking, joking… Good job Sunday BTW…
Lots of good points here, and it’s too late and I’m too tired to add much. Except for two things:
1) The age range of 7 – 11 is HUGE from a developmental perspective (ask your pediatrician if you don’t believe me). And kids vary a lot in terms of how fast they develop during those four years. Some kids can handle the speed at the lower end of that range, but many can’t (safely). Besides, why do some parents get so hung up with power? Kids should be learning technique, and less power forces them to be smooth to be fast.
2) Let’s not forget that not all Junior 1s come up from the KK class. Kids who have learned technique in KK may be able to handle more speed/power a lot faster than those who have not. If we want to grow karting, we NEED to have a class for newbies. IMHO, the MiniMax ain’t it (and I’m a big supporter of the Mini–for kids who have come up from the lower powered classes).
That’s why I think we need something between the KK class and the Mini Max. Don suggests the restricted Gazelle might fit the bill. I thought it was higher HP, but from what he says, that might be a good solution. Personally, I have nothing against a restricted Animal either, but then I don’t know much about it.
Good discussion–this is the foundation of our sport, so more good ideas and civil discussion can only help for next season. :cheers:
Don,
First, let me say that although rumors are obviously flying, there has been no official talk of cutting the Jr 1 Animal. However, I think you are right to assume that something has to be done about the multiple Jr 1 Classes. The first part of that has happened, but making the K80 stock, and dropping it to a level below the Mini Max and the Animal.You are right, you and I have discussed this.
The Junior 1 Animal Class did have its day. There were larger fields. Did the Mini Max really kill it? No, I don’t think so. Kids moved up out of it, into TaG, Shifter, or struggled with trying to race a Jr 2 4Cycle. How many of the then Animal racers moved to a Mini Max. I can think of one, Cole. Maybe a few, like the Farleys and Sullivans, decided to move to K80 to do the Stars thing.The CSC did drop the Animal after the first event last year. Not because there were only 2 at the race, but because those were the only 2 that had signed up for the CSC. At that time I did not have any phone calls, emails, or anything, from people interested in future events. If we had gotten 10 membership apps, and only 2 showed at the first event, at least we would have known that it would be bigger as the season went on. And, if it had been the only class offered for that age group, then it would have been more of an issue.
So, why aren’t we doing the same to the K80? Because it is an important piece of the class structure. Now, if you are saying that the Animal could be an engine package that for $600 could be taken out of the box, sealed without having mods, and maybe restricted to bring it to the speed of the stock K80, then maybe it is worth looking at.
The stock sealed K80 program has been run successfully, and can be good here given the chance. And if there is a better, reasonable engine package out there for this class, then we should be looking at it. I don?t know, maybe Brad is already looking at Honda for that step. But I do know that we have to have a class in place for the age group between Kid Karts and Mini Maxes, and the Animal right now is not at that level.
Jim’s Gazelles are going to be rentals, I believe, but are going on good Birel cadet chassis, and will at least let us have a first hand view of what they can do. That is it. There has been no talk of adding a class, or anything else. I just thought I would mention it, because you brought it up. I don’t think it is going to be anything for the age group we are trying to grow, but I have never seen them run firsthand.
I did not mean to debate the cost factor of the engines. I was just questioning the validity of your stating that an Animal could be purchased for $600 and be competitive. Seeing engines for sale for 900-1000, and some of those are front runners in the class, it made me want to clarify what the $600 got you. If an out of the box Animal is competitive, then why the extra dollars? I will not argue that the Mini Max is a better deal. Each has its own pros and cons. I think that the Mini Max program is going to continue to grow, and it is certainly fun to watch. I am sorry that you are disappointed that the Animals were moved out of the group with them. I didn?t have anything to do with that decision, as we were familiar with running Animals and Mini Maxes together at IMI club events. It is hard to blame the K80s for anything in the Animal class when there were a few of the Animals that were slower than the K80s. I do agree, though, that in general, they should not be run together, if possible.
I don?t like your idea of simply sending the K80s back to the club level. Let?s go race the CSC with Kid Karts, then have to quit that to go back to club only until ready for Mini Max? That hardly seems right.
I am pretty sure that there are people out there that think the CSC would be fine without any of the Kid or Jr classes. That, of course, would count me out all together. It is important for the Junior classes to be grown carefully. That is the future of the sport. Get them hooked young. How is that going to happen if there is no class for a beginner 9 year old that is not ready for the speed of a Mini Max? Or a kid that is 7 going on 8 moving out of Kid Karts. Yes, practice and seat time. But how far do they get before being burned out on that. The race day competition feeds the desire to go back and practice more. A Kid Kart racer could practice in Mini Max all off season, but going from 35mph to 55+ mph is huge. And now in a bigger chassis, with rolling starts. They will learn, but there desire will die if you send them from racing at the CSC back to local races only.
I do not disagree with the fact that the evolution of our class structure is not the most beautiful thing to watch. If you look back at what I proposed for next year, it does not include 3 clutch classes for the same age group. There is one class for 5-7, one for 7-10( or 11), and then it branches out to include the TaG and Shifter ranks with Mini Max and Novice Shifter. I personally think that structure makes sense, and without continually changing it every year, it will grow.
I wonder how many Kid Karters are planning on moving up next year? Which class do you plan to go to?
I know that this is personal for you Don, and I understand (I really do) the amount of work you have done building rules and doing research. But since you agree that we have too many classes for the 9-12 year olds, you have to understand that unfortunately the Animal is going to lose out to the Mini Max. I think the Animal is still a great package for a family to use to get some seat time and decide if racing is for them, by attending club events. But then the step to the CSC would mean changing to a Mini Max.
Angie, Don…….who ever.
What karting in Colorado needs is a long term plan for all the classes. Every year that we have been involved the engine package and or class has changed and not always for the best. If a family came to me and asked me what class should they start out in, I’m not sure how I would answer that………..We need a competition committee to help set the direction for years to come. ❗
Mikey, owner, crew chief, truck driver, umbrella guy for Tyler #45 Juinor 1 Animal and Sydney #44 Tag Jr. ooooooo and coolest hat on the grid :cheers:
Did anyone notice that Mikey’s pith helmet was in the feature article on ekartingnews yesterday? They specifically asked for a shot of it, after hearing the rumours.
I will weigh in on this subject later, I promise; it’s too complex to handle during lunch.
Just my two cents worth, but all three of my boys engines are just that, box stock animals for under 600, and being just newbies they had some very good battles with both the one mod k80 and the other stock k80. I look forward to hearing where we go with the classes in the CSC and I understand that racing costs money but keeping the costs down would benefit all.
Chris, Connor, Colin and Cameron Wogrin
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