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Greg,
Point well taken. What I am saying is we THINK that allowing an 01 into the fray will work. Then let’s back it up with FACTS so the first driver/parent/team/psychic who whinges by saying “X motor is better” we can back it up and say “yea, by .3 HP.” We have a black hole that is sucking innuendo’s, rumours and sheer BS and we can rid ourselves of that black hole by adhering to FACTS. That’ll shut a lot of yaps up and then perhaps we can get back to racing.
Jeez he looks like Gilles at Monaco in the 312!
Waddya think Doug, a little loose upon entry (doesn’t look like he’s at apex yet eh?)? Too hot going into the corner?
No offense to ANYONE but just because Tom in California has run dyno tests does NOT mean we should take his results as gospel. Any engine guy can tell you, if you want it to run at it’s peak we can or we can sandbag also.
Barry Lewis has a dyno. It cost him money. He needs to recoup some of that money to stay in business. I think CSC should pony up in this area, if Barry wants to give CSC a special rate THAT’S HIS DECISION. But again, taking results from an outside source when we have the equipment and people to replicate an accurate test is being lazy. Period.
And to squash the naysayers about the 4 strokes the way to go: knee jerk reaction, thanks for your help. My friends, two strokes will be around longer than you and I will probably kart. That’s reality. Don’t take one comment from congress, etc and think the sky is falling. Now, keep focused on the task at hand you all are putting together a nice discussion. Keep moving forward. I’m proud of you all…. 8)
It (still) appears to me that bolting on an 01 cylinder/head to a 99 case is a good option. It also appears to me that we can go and use an older cylinder (see EKN posts) and see what the dyno determines. I think we’re making a mountain out of a molehill but as long as we act upon the situation with facts, figures and careful thought we’ll get through it and keep everyone happy and satisfied. I know we can do that.
Doug: Many years ago they interviewed Michael Schumacher and his brother and asked them about their karting careers. The main thing I remember about the interview was that their family didn’t have the dough to run the biggest and best equipment every year, in fact MS said his stuff was always at least two years old and their father stressed to them not to break it or make a crazy move that resulted in a crash and broke equipment (obviously he forgot that lesson in F1 years later! 8) ) He won by talent and talent alone.
Bill: I agree about the Oxymoron of “stock honda”. Call it what it is, spec Honda and leave it at that. And you’re right about your Pavesi’s. It appears to me that your anchors have gotten a great rate of return!
The glaring omitted General consensus in many racing families/drivers is the painfully obvious: Perhaps they are getting beat by a more talented driver (or perhaps a driver who’s put in more laps practicing). Saying you got waxed by a cheater or a guy with deep pockets lessens the blow of the truth, ya might be good but ya ain’t THAT good. I have friends from high school that thought they were the next Johnny Bench, Brooks Robinson and Larry Birds and chased that dream well into their 30’s. There comes a time to face the truth, painful as it is! How many karters nationwide think they’re the next Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Alonso only to get to the next higher level and realize that they need to raise their “A” game to even compete? I’m off course here; back to the topic.
Here’s a suggestion for both Doug and Bill and everyone else: Everyone’s throwing Obstacles out and no solutions. Solutions are backed byfacts so here’s my thought: Barry of Billet Performance has a dyno that just loves to be used. Let’s get a “spec Honda circa 1999 and compare it against a 99 bottom end and attach an ’01 cylinder to it or some sort of permutation. Barry’s got 15 plus years in motorcycle engines (albeit Yamaha but knowledge is knowledge) so ASK his opinoin in this matter. Get the pernutations and dyno the mutha’s and then we have facts to make a viable solution. Perhaps bolting on 5-7 pounds will make the difference AND keep the 99’s in play. I had someone tell me that parts supply on the HONDA’s are a finite supply and a projected service supply life of 20 years. I can’t back that up but it sounds genuine. If we’ve exceeded the 99 supply that makes sense. Again, until someone talks to the DMU’s (decision making units) from Honda it’s all heresay. If it is indeed the case then what’s to say the same thing can’t happen with the 01 cylinders? It sounds to me (and again, I am no mechanic nor a manufacturing knowledgeable guy) that we could take the cases of the 99’s and mate them to the 01 cylinder, dyno it and see what the dyno reveals. As long as we have a few knowledgeable tech guys who can oversee it and verify a level playing field. Then spec owners can see the results on the CSC website or another national organization’s website and make a decision of which way to go from there.
Damn, I’m a genius! That was a pretty easy solution! Y’all can call me Einstein from now on.
And another thing in closing: This is painful to admit but I know I’d be a top three driver in my class if I practiced more on both used tires and on new tires. That’s the truth. How many of us can look in the mirror and admit our shortcomings?
This is what i LOVE about the shifter classes!
One year you say we’re going to a stock class and market it and sell it as a class where your engine is good for a LONG time. Then a year later it apparently is going to be changed to a 2001 motor.DIDN’T ANYONE THINK TO ASK THE QUESTIONS LAST YEAR? And we wonder why peope leave the sport in a short period of time, frustrated and feeling screwed?!
In my opinion the knee jerk reaction (once again) is to SELL all these SAPS a new engine package and chassis. It’s okay they’ve all got plenty of garage space to store their obsolete boat anchors, don’t they?
Someone with some STONES needs to grab the bull by the horns and get the right answer. The job doesn’t start until the person says no. Do you all take no for an answer, turn and run tail in LIFE? C’mon, someone’s not trying hard enough or trying to sell you the next best greatest thing in karting.
PT Barnum was right, there’s a sucker born every minute (and it appears that they all congregate in the karting shifter class)
Who’s got the stones to deal with Honda or their subcontractor to get the 99 cylinders? That, is the morally RIGHT thing to do. And that opinion comes from a karter with ZERO ties to the shifter class. I’m just tired of seeing us the consumer getting screwed.
I hate to single someone out before I talk to him but I’m on a roll now. Roger Bonham is going to be #1 or #2 for the year and to me is what the class is about. A guy with a realistic budget and a damn fine racer who got on board the “stock Honda” class for what it was marketed as; Everyone with the same engine package and tuning and driving was the difference not how much money you spent to get every ounce of horsepower out of the engine. Now he’s going to go from a podium racer to midpack because his 99 is on the “wrong side of the teeter totter”. I imagine he’s just tickled pink, as others are with their 99 hondas. And another thing: Honda makes parts for bikes that are 20 years old to keep them running. This ONE YEAR of a certain model mx engine isn’t aligned with this thinking? Yea, right.
Give me the contacts (remember, i’m Switzerland, I’m neutral) and I’ll do my best to get you the correct cylinders. And better answers without bias.
@Doug Welch wrote:
how quickly do we get right back into the same situation? Will they have the exact same problem?
This the EXACT reason why people went to stock honda class. Let me refresh memories: Stock class with equal engines in powerband, torque and HP. An engine that they could use for several years without it becoming a boat anchor after a season or two.
I think we need to get not only OUR region involved in this but perhaps other sanctioning bodies with the same challenge. There have to be some players who have clout or connections to steer the nationwide karting powers to be to reiterate this to HONDA or a suitable OEM cylinder company. Or again am I just being Naive? Surely Honda only has a problem when they aren’t making $$$ or it’s illegal. They have the casting and milling machines to make a boatload of cash in the parts division!
Pardon my ignorance on manufacturing but wouldn’t it be best to contact a HONDA representative, explain the situation to them and give them rough numbers nationwide and perhaps they could then make a decision to continue manufacturing 99 cylinders to meet demand? Or am I just being naive in this whole scenario?
Or an outside company coming in to manufacture an OEM replacement?
@Doug Welch wrote:
We should move slowly.
Amen to that. A knee jerk reaction to the problem only makes a bigger problem.
@Rich Vito wrote:
I am always full of surprises! 👿 :hide
I’m not EVEN going to touch that one…
:stir
Kirk,
Your attitude is perfect! Get your butt in the seat more and try and learn different lines (or plagurize and follow the faster drivers in practice) and you’ll be on the varsity team in no time!
Happy practicing. And like Allen Iverson said, “do you know what we’re talking about? We’re talking about practice”
Another famous american quote, eh Jay? 8)
Rich:
Help me, help you… 8)
I’ve got a big enough garage, workbench, beer fridge and outdoor stereo to help you get your rig together we’ll just have to limit the beer consumption! You live in Longmont, I live in Longmont so it can happen!Yes, I love busting chops, anyone’s!
To clarify and show some sort of fairness I wouldn’t mind an extra CSC race at Grand Junction to try and equal out the amount of travelling the western slope racers currently have and the racers from Utah. I have nothing against those racers but let’s call the CSC what it really is; a club race on steriods and not a regional series. And I second the GGP being a demonstration or “one off” race since I’ll probably never attend as long as it’s Memorial Day weekend
