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But Mike a genius wouldn’t have all ready forgoten the first post on this thread. You would only be an Einstein for a year or so till the same problem comes up again.
But working hard this off season to get a bunch on new spec shifter guys set up for this same discusion next year does seem to follow par in kart racing sales.“however direct from Honda they will not be building anymore 2 strokes as of 2008.”
I would like to plan my motor usage for the fewture not just for the next year or two.
Brian brings up a good point on the Honda 4 cycle. Many are already looking into it and have had it on a kart for a couple of years now. There are problems. Being a motocross engine, it is not designed to run at sustained high rpm. It is built for on/off throttle conditions commonly found on a motocross track. In karting, we run high rpm constantly. There are too many reports of top end failuers, particularly in the valve train. Needless to say, when a valve stem breaks, the results are very messy.
The other problem is that being a motorcross engine, it leans forward. Given the extra tall nature of a 4 cycle, the engine gets in the way of the drivers arms.
Talked to Tom K at SKUSA and they have already performed all the dyno testing on the 99 and 2001/02 for us…. there are some differences but very very small ones. Track times are basically the same, that is the reason that SKUSA and the Prokarts series is allowning the use of the 2001-2002 engines… If we opened it up to 99 to 02 that would give everyone more options and get these guys that are standing on the sidelines because they don’t have a motor or can’t get a cylinder out on the track… There is a very interesting post on e-karting news about this subject. http://www.ekartingnews.com/viewtopic.php?t=49801
No offense to ANYONE but just because Tom in California has run dyno tests does NOT mean we should take his results as gospel. Any engine guy can tell you, if you want it to run at it’s peak we can or we can sandbag also.
Barry Lewis has a dyno. It cost him money. He needs to recoup some of that money to stay in business. I think CSC should pony up in this area, if Barry wants to give CSC a special rate THAT’S HIS DECISION. But again, taking results from an outside source when we have the equipment and people to replicate an accurate test is being lazy. Period.
And to squash the naysayers about the 4 strokes the way to go: knee jerk reaction, thanks for your help. My friends, two strokes will be around longer than you and I will probably kart. That’s reality. Don’t take one comment from congress, etc and think the sky is falling. Now, keep focused on the task at hand you all are putting together a nice discussion. Keep moving forward. I’m proud of you all…. 8)
It (still) appears to me that bolting on an 01 cylinder/head to a 99 case is a good option. It also appears to me that we can go and use an older cylinder (see EKN posts) and see what the dyno determines. I think we’re making a mountain out of a molehill but as long as we act upon the situation with facts, figures and careful thought we’ll get through it and keep everyone happy and satisfied. I know we can do that.
Some are concerned about a preceived advantage from one years’ cylinder to another.
Has anyone thought about the preceived advantage of “legacy cases” ( fully modified cases)? CSC Rule 11.3.1.5.1 You can use a modified case through 2007. I would surely beleive some are at an advantage now with these cases. Are we currently adding 10 lbs to the competitors utilizing these cases?
The fact of the matter is all “Spec” and “Stock” moto packages are a frankenstein built package. (99 cylinder, 2000 case, 96 tranny, etc..) I don’t think opening up the rules to allow other cylinders will “kill” Stock/spec moto. Will one have an advantage over another? Maybe? But the fact of the matter is and will always remain that the Driver who is accomplished and knows how to set up a chassis will be the one to beat.
just to throw my .2 in here. I agree with Doug that there may be a percieved advantage one way or another if you opened up the cylinders, but the fact remains that, to my knowledge, the ’99 cylinder/head has won every major Stock/Spec honda race so far: Supernats ’05, FWT (good job Greg), Summer Shootout and most of the PKC races (last I heard Halen was on a ’99) and thats after several engine builders have said that the ’01 makes SLIGHTLY more hp in a different area of the powerband. If you have a poor pipe to motor seal or pipe to silencer seal, if you are off one clip position on the needle or dirty airfilter that advantage is gone.
Like has been said, if you think you lost because of a 1/3hp difference than I don’t know what to say to you. While I do wish there was a steady supply of ’99 cylinders it doesn’t look like that will happen so lets let in the ’01’s and go race. People will find a way to complain about percieved advantages even in classes like Easykart and Rotax. We are never gonna please every racer of every class.
Brandon Anderson
http://www.reactionkarting.comGoing along with what Brandon said,
If a driver wants to win a race, he will. Ask Curtis Cooksy and Nick Halen or any of the nation’s leading spec moto drivers if they will settle on thier finishing position just because thier motor is down a bit on power.After a reed problem at the last Bandi race, Hi-Tech told us our engine was probably dwon around 3-4 hp, and that did not stop me from performing in the prefinal, granted I made a fatal mistake in the main.
i think the only problem with the 01 is perception. If anyone gets one and wins then everyone will blame it on the motor. But i guess thats racing, everyone always blames thier own misfortune on the engine.
Greg,
Point well taken. What I am saying is we THINK that allowing an 01 into the fray will work. Then let’s back it up with FACTS so the first driver/parent/team/psychic who whinges by saying “X motor is better” we can back it up and say “yea, by .3 HP.” We have a black hole that is sucking innuendo’s, rumours and sheer BS and we can rid ourselves of that black hole by adhering to FACTS. That’ll shut a lot of yaps up and then perhaps we can get back to racing.
@Mike Jansen wrote:
That’ll shut a lot of yaps up and then perhaps we can get back to racing.
Why would we want to do that??????????? :idn: This is the internet, that’s what it’s for.
Back to the power thing. If you were at The Track, you saw Greg beat the more powerful rotary. He would lose 10 kart lengths on the straight to it but gain 12 in the twisty bits. It still comes down to kart and driver.
One small thing Doug Gregs weight was 360lbs???? the rotarys
weight was 410 gee I wounder if that might of made a differance
Small details ????So, Barry and I have talked and the dyno is hot and ready to go. We got a good base 1999 already to hook up. What we have in mind is to run the 1999 first and get a base line. We would then swap out the cylinder and head, break in the new ring and see how it compares. Who wants to donate a 2001 cylinder and head?
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