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From what I hear, Honda may not have the castings for the original 99 cylinder – at least that’s the rumor floating around. Sounds like you can get a cylinder from Honda that is sold as a 99 – but it is obviously different from the original and more like a 97. If all that plays out as being true – brings back up the debate of what cylinder to run – doesn’t really matter which one as long as everybody runs the same one, and like Doug said, we take a look at what is going to happen in the future.
Couple good points have been made:
1. Don’t over-react and start changing things
2. Look @ the long term plan
3. Talk to Honda and see what’s up
My .02 – pick ONE and go with it – if I have to shelf my cylinder and get a new one to run spec – it’s not that huge of an investment – If I dont – lucky me… To me, anything allowing more than one spicific cylinder / ignition combination will kill the whole intent of the spec class and put the builders / dynos back in front / controll.
Gary
I have to admit, the shortage of cylinders has been disappointing after having been told by Richard Carr of Honda NA that they would continue to provide parts – as they do for most of their bikes up to 20 years old.
Last April there was a powerbuy of cylinders that depleted their inventory. Not sure what’s happened since, although I was told they would be back ordered for 4-6 weeks. That was April. I haven’t been able to contact Rich for a while mostly been too busy to even think about karting.
Oh and Honda never actually made the cylinders. They are cast at a vendor foundry then contract manufactured & plated by a different company that also makes some cylinders for other Japanese bikes too.
John, could you try and track your Honda guy down and see what is going on? We have all been waiting since April and still no cylinders.. It is really frustrating for the guys that want to get into the Stock moto class but can’t and are forced to wait or buy something else..
I would like to see what a Honda 4-cycle could do on a gokart. Also I would expect to see the DD2 grow nationwide and in state. Right now it is one of the fastest selling products at SSC.
The DD2 is not the answer. Check the other forums in Southern Cal. and you will be inundated with the problems and costs of repairs as well as spares. If it was the answer the classes would be hugh already in So Cal. Most of the races are running the FR125 or have switched back to it from the DD2
Tom
This is what i LOVE about the shifter classes!
One year you say we’re going to a stock class and market it and sell it as a class where your engine is good for a LONG time. Then a year later it apparently is going to be changed to a 2001 motor.DIDN’T ANYONE THINK TO ASK THE QUESTIONS LAST YEAR? And we wonder why peope leave the sport in a short period of time, frustrated and feeling screwed?!
In my opinion the knee jerk reaction (once again) is to SELL all these SAPS a new engine package and chassis. It’s okay they’ve all got plenty of garage space to store their obsolete boat anchors, don’t they?
Someone with some STONES needs to grab the bull by the horns and get the right answer. The job doesn’t start until the person says no. Do you all take no for an answer, turn and run tail in LIFE? C’mon, someone’s not trying hard enough or trying to sell you the next best greatest thing in karting.
PT Barnum was right, there’s a sucker born every minute (and it appears that they all congregate in the karting shifter class)
Who’s got the stones to deal with Honda or their subcontractor to get the 99 cylinders? That, is the morally RIGHT thing to do. And that opinion comes from a karter with ZERO ties to the shifter class. I’m just tired of seeing us the consumer getting screwed.
I hate to single someone out before I talk to him but I’m on a roll now. Roger Bonham is going to be #1 or #2 for the year and to me is what the class is about. A guy with a realistic budget and a damn fine racer who got on board the “stock Honda” class for what it was marketed as; Everyone with the same engine package and tuning and driving was the difference not how much money you spent to get every ounce of horsepower out of the engine. Now he’s going to go from a podium racer to midpack because his 99 is on the “wrong side of the teeter totter”. I imagine he’s just tickled pink, as others are with their 99 hondas. And another thing: Honda makes parts for bikes that are 20 years old to keep them running. This ONE YEAR of a certain model mx engine isn’t aligned with this thinking? Yea, right.
Give me the contacts (remember, i’m Switzerland, I’m neutral) and I’ll do my best to get you the correct cylinders. And better answers without bias.
You go Mike!!! The problem with Honda is that the karting community is such a small piece of their huge puzzle that they really could care less if we have motors or not. the 150 cylinders that have just hit the US are already spoken for I believe. My understanding on the 2001-2002 Stock moto packages is that they have a little more bottom but not as much top end as the 99. As far as lap times I heard they were identical with the 99’s. Anyone out there heard anything?
One of my major concerns falls right in line with what Mike is saying. Perception. If the 2001 is perceived to be faster, racers will think they have to change to be fast. For example, If I build a 2001 and we go faster, some wiill think its all motor. So now they have to switch. Or worse, a guy shows up with a 1999 for one track and a 2001 for another and he runs in front at both, then the preception is that you need both to win!
One fact we always have to remember in karting, there is a very strong mentality out there that goes like this. If I had his equipment, I would win. This mentality gives no credit to the driver and less to the chassis. Yet in karting, it’s mostly driver, then chassis and lastly, motor. We see this furstration all the time, a guy buys the same equpment or last years champion’s kart and they still run in the back. They get fustrated, call every cheaters and quit.
Mike,
You might want to not just call it “shifter”. Our boat anchor Pavesi motors were baught before the 2004 season, 2 motors. They will complete their 3rd season this year. If the rules/classes pan out they might be run next year and maybe the year after with Kyle’s brother Mark aboard. Not a bad return on the investment. Mark is on the third year on his SHIFTER 80 motor also, just updated from novice to 80 jr.I guess that proves Doug’s post also. The latest and greatest isn’t always the fastest and most cost effective.
Really interested in the way this (stock moto) thread goes. I thought it might be the way to send Mark next year and sell the rest. I thought this class would have a good number of participants. Before reading of this shortage situation I was leaning this way, now I don’t know.
I have been told many times the word stock usually has the most problems with rules, equality and tech. It really should be called spec moto, as these motors are not stock. I’ve been told the tech has been made much easier with the tools that have been made.
Bill
Doug: Many years ago they interviewed Michael Schumacher and his brother and asked them about their karting careers. The main thing I remember about the interview was that their family didn’t have the dough to run the biggest and best equipment every year, in fact MS said his stuff was always at least two years old and their father stressed to them not to break it or make a crazy move that resulted in a crash and broke equipment (obviously he forgot that lesson in F1 years later! 8) ) He won by talent and talent alone.
Bill: I agree about the Oxymoron of “stock honda”. Call it what it is, spec Honda and leave it at that. And you’re right about your Pavesi’s. It appears to me that your anchors have gotten a great rate of return!
The glaring omitted General consensus in many racing families/drivers is the painfully obvious: Perhaps they are getting beat by a more talented driver (or perhaps a driver who’s put in more laps practicing). Saying you got waxed by a cheater or a guy with deep pockets lessens the blow of the truth, ya might be good but ya ain’t THAT good. I have friends from high school that thought they were the next Johnny Bench, Brooks Robinson and Larry Birds and chased that dream well into their 30’s. There comes a time to face the truth, painful as it is! How many karters nationwide think they’re the next Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Alonso only to get to the next higher level and realize that they need to raise their “A” game to even compete? I’m off course here; back to the topic.
Here’s a suggestion for both Doug and Bill and everyone else: Everyone’s throwing Obstacles out and no solutions. Solutions are backed byfacts so here’s my thought: Barry of Billet Performance has a dyno that just loves to be used. Let’s get a “spec Honda circa 1999 and compare it against a 99 bottom end and attach an ’01 cylinder to it or some sort of permutation. Barry’s got 15 plus years in motorcycle engines (albeit Yamaha but knowledge is knowledge) so ASK his opinoin in this matter. Get the pernutations and dyno the mutha’s and then we have facts to make a viable solution. Perhaps bolting on 5-7 pounds will make the difference AND keep the 99’s in play. I had someone tell me that parts supply on the HONDA’s are a finite supply and a projected service supply life of 20 years. I can’t back that up but it sounds genuine. If we’ve exceeded the 99 supply that makes sense. Again, until someone talks to the DMU’s (decision making units) from Honda it’s all heresay. If it is indeed the case then what’s to say the same thing can’t happen with the 01 cylinders? It sounds to me (and again, I am no mechanic nor a manufacturing knowledgeable guy) that we could take the cases of the 99’s and mate them to the 01 cylinder, dyno it and see what the dyno reveals. As long as we have a few knowledgeable tech guys who can oversee it and verify a level playing field. Then spec owners can see the results on the CSC website or another national organization’s website and make a decision of which way to go from there.
Damn, I’m a genius! That was a pretty easy solution! Y’all can call me Einstein from now on.
And another thing in closing: This is painful to admit but I know I’d be a top three driver in my class if I practiced more on both used tires and on new tires. That’s the truth. How many of us can look in the mirror and admit our shortcomings?
MIke
Works for me. I should have our engine back together by the end of next week. We can use it as our test mule. Some one want to cough up a 2001 cyclinder and head?
hey Einstein:
Who’s gonna pay for all that dyno time, or is that all free… If so, I could REALLY use some (smile). Given enough dyno testing – I’m sure we could come up with… well… a lot of data…
I think you guys are ALL right – Winning is 73.6% driver – 9.42% chassis – 5.02% motor – and the rest gets talked (argued) about… hopefully over a beer or two…
Stock (spec) moto has proved itsef as a viable class for all the obvious reasons – keep it true to the initial intention (no need to reiterate). Come up with a laundry-list of parts that promotes the spirit and heart of the sport… and lets race it… If it changes from year to year – ok, gives us something to think, talk about, work on, etc – cool! That’s what we like to do right?
mmm… guess I just had to say something…
G.
I’ve been following this thread, and I can feel for those racers with spec Honda equipment, and little future for the ’99 engine. Stacy’s comment that karting is low on the totem pole for Honda is probably accurate. Honda is the world’s largest engine maker, and most of the total is in small engines. Motocross is the market for them, not karting. With that in mind, I did a bit a research on the latest offerings from Honda in motocross. Being a responsible manufacturer in the modern world, Honda is moving rapidly to 4-stroke engines exclusively, for reasons of: noxious and carbon emissions, fuel efficiency, reliability, noise and ease of use. Though the 2-stroke is light and simple, modern concerns call for its demise. The good news is that Honda now ofers a hot little 250cc package in its CRF250R motocross cycle that looks like a perfect solution for the future (rather than prolonging the past). Moto classes have been changing to accomodate the 4-stroke engines from Honda and others that are now dominating the races. From what I could dig up, the F250R package is rated at 42 hp, and dynos at 33-34 hp at 11500 rpm at the wheel, peaking at 13370 rpm, with a five speed. It weighs just 2# more than the 125, while offering more low end grunt and a broader power curve.
Can Stacey or Doug look into this alternative from the Honda folks? Is this available as a kit motor? If this solution is available, what about an equivalency weight penalty for the new engines? That way, all could run, relatively evenly, and newcomers to the class would not be saddled with obsolete motors. When the old motors go to that smoggy place in the sky, then the new ones could be fitted as replacements. After all, isn’t this a CSC class, not a national class? It’s designed for the racer who wants to run fast without breaking the bank. (This is a concept that should be followed in almost all classes: Fun First! Level playing field with reasonable costs Second, and ultimate competition Third.)
On another note, I found a very interesting product from a UK source that would change the TaG classes altogether. It’s a CVT for karts, with a very wide ratio spread, infinitely variable gears, built-in traction control, and faster overall lap times by 1-2 seconds. It even promises longer engine life, and retrofits on any kart. This may blow the DD2 into the weeds… Check it out: http://www.cvracing.co.uk
Brian
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