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A quick word on homologations for 2007. Bill is correct, in CIK competition, the last two homologation periods are legal. Homologations is done every three years and next one comes in 2007. Chassis is 2006.
In the past, there has been relatively small changes in the specifications with each new period so the refinemets have tended to be small and older engines have stayed competitive. However, there are significant changes coming. The next generation of engins are supposed to be the so called “green” engines. The biggest changes are coming in ICA (100cc stuff which do not run here) but similar changes are in store for ICC.
The new rules require the engines to last longer, run less oil and are rev limited (although many arguments are still ongoing and it’s not known how different the final rules will be. They were going 4 cycle but that was trash canned.) The new spec engines are out there and testing now and they have proven to be significanty slower than the current spec engines. There is no way CIK will allow old engines in if the new style engines do indeed prove to be slower. Personally, I can’t in good concsious recomend a guy buy a new ICC this coming year knowing full well it could very well be obsolete in a year.
Many of us refer to CIK as the Cartel of Italian Kart manufactueres. CIK sets the rules to benifit the Italian manufacturers, not the racers.
@Freezeman wrote:
Are you selling them for that or are you going to try and take all the victories with it? If your going to race it maybe a restictor on it would serve the other karters better. 😛
I will sell it for that or I will give you the sources and you can have one done yourself for roughly the same money. Makes no difference to me, I’ll just go get another one. Actually, it would be less if you forgo the dyno tuning. A brand new assembled motor can be had for around $2,700 with everything you need, pipe, silencer, carb, mount. $1,900 for the assembled motor then add the other stuff. Check out http://www.kartweb.com for sources.
New ICC packages retail for around $4,000 now. And guess what, 2007 starts a whole new homolgation peiord so your motor you buy this coming year will be a boat anchor the following year.
If you are on the east side of the hill, the best thing to do is go to our two major tracks, IMI and Bandimere and start practicing. Like SCCA, don’t scrimp on the safety gear, a good suit, helmet and neke brace are critical. If you have any questions, I know the track personal will gladly answer all your questions. Also, there are always racers at the tracks and they too will gladly answer any and all questions you have.
If you are on the west side of the hill, Grand Junction is the place for you. If you are down near Colorado Springs, then CRE is the place. Directions and locations of our Colorado tracks are found on this web site. It’s great we have so many options. If you specific questions, you an post them here or give any of the kart businesses that advertise here a call. By the end of the day, you have enough information to answer just about all your questoins.
Welcome to the funny farm!
@blink wrote:
What do you think the Nations cup was?
I think it was a joke to call it a “national” event.
@blink wrote:
When you have to spend $7000 on one shifter engine to be competitive, or have to buy a new animal engine every three races, you run off 90% of your possible new karters. TAG is even expensive to get into but at least the engines last for a while.
You couldn’t be more correct. The bottom line to get into karting now is a joke. It is killing karting worse than anything right now.
We agree on far more than we disagree. For you, if the CSC didn’t exist, your club program would improve. But what about the sport as a whole? MX is strong for some of the very reasons you point out. You can finance a bike but you can also ride it at a dozen different tracks around the state and you can ride it down the street. More tracks doesn’t seem to have hurt MX bikes, why do you automaticly think it will hurt karting?
I think more tracks will keep karters in the sport longer because they have more places to play. With fewer tracks, if a guy gets bored with only game in town (or pissed off), he’s gone. With more tracks, we might keep him in the sport.
I think lower costs will help keep karters in the sport longer. Classes like stock moto are a strong step forward to helping reduce engine costs. The motor we just finished cost me $3200 and should last all season. And its only 4 or 5 hp below the best of the built ICC’s. I’m doing my part. I make quality products and sell them for less than any OEM part out there.
You are right, we need more karters. The best way to get them is more options, not fewer and lower costs. Cut throat competition won’t help anyone but cooporation will help everyone.
@Ellee mae wrote:
And what about those of us who ONLY wanna do club races? thats all we can really afford? Ive been racing for 4 yrs, ya’ll already pushed us out of the csc, what else do you wanna push the four cycles out of? everything?
Club racers are exactly the guys I’m most concerned about. They are the backbone of karting and the racers we most often overlook. By breaking the CSC into two series, clutch karts and shifters, we expand the opportunities for 4 cycles, not lessen them. We can make club racing stronger, not weaker. The CSC has hurt club racing and it has reduced opportunites for club racers.
Look, right now we have 7 shifter classes. We have 6 clutch kart classes in the CSC. Why not break it into 2 series and expand the clutch karts to include Rotax or Leopard only classes and 4 cycle classes. It gives the club racer, particularly the 4 cycle guys an option they don’t have now. By only being a 4 or 5 race series, it doesn’t break your bank and by tying in 2 or 3 club races to make your regional points good, how does it hurt you? You can take your potato digger to the other tracks if you want and it keeps your club program strong.
Ellee, if you took a minute to see the postives, you will see I’m trying to help you, not hurt you. I’m trying to give you back what the CSC took away. I’m not trying to push anyone out, rather I’m trying to give everyone more opportunites.
The only racers this works againest is the racer who is trying to run both a clutch kart and a shifter. But those are very few. I think far more will benifit than are hurt by this. And even if they still wanted to do both, they would be doing no more races by doing both than they would by doing a single expanded CSC series. Except that with two series, they will get to race each kart more on race day. Isn’t that what most racers want?
The numbers for this years CSC are down from last year. That’s a simple fact. If we add another track to the mix, the CSC in its current form grows to 9 races and it stops club racing altogether. In addition, the pressure will be on to add still another drop. So a 9 race series with 2 drops, who gest hurt. Bandimere and Grand Junction, two the base stalwarts of the series.
Brad, you are right about two things. First, most karters only stay in it for 2-3 years. We’ve been racing for 9. Mitch has been in karting his entire life. We were stupid enough to fall in love with this sport and we care about it deeply. Most get tired of the bull crap and bail. Second, racer have only enough money and time on average for 10 events per year. If the CSC grows to 9, kiss club racing goodby.
What I’m proposing is something like what is going on in southern California except YOU get to control everything. Two series like Gatorz and ProKart. Change the name if you’re hung up on it but if you had two series, one for clutch karts and one for shifter. Each series is 5 (or 4) races, no drops and a racer has to do 2 or 3 club races (any track) for their points to be good in the regional series.
You as a track owner get two events, just like now. If you spend some time promoting the events, each series will get more total racers than if you continued with one series only. You will gain additional entries for your club races. At the end of the year, you will have more money in your pocket than if you continue down the current path.
I know some think that the addition of The Track will hurt existing tracks. But I disagree. If each track works on promoting karting, each track is located in a stratigically different area. It opens up karting to new potential customers who dont know what’s going on, on the other side of town. It also gives racers a chance to go around different tracks. I know that for us, we quickly got tired on only going around one track. If your track was the only one in town, we would have quit the sport a long time ago. But the fact that we have been able to go to over 24 different tracks around the country has helped keep our interest in the sport. Many people quit because they are bored. More tracks gives more options and will only help keep racers in the sport.
I see three option for next year.
First, add The Track and do the CSC just like this year. 9 races, 2 drops. The results I see are lower overall numbers per event than this year ( a continuing trend from last year) and fewer entries for club races.
Second, two series like I suggest and we will have more overall racers with increased club participation.
Three. Every man (track) for themself.
What will it be?
It’s like this. They divide the total racers in a class into groups after qualifying. The 1st qualifer is 1st in group A, the 2nd qualifer is 1st in group B and so on till all groups are filled. You have as many groups as it takes to divide the field into groups no bigger than 6 to 10 but always an even number of groups.
You then have as many pre-finals as it takes for each group to race every other group. If there were 4 groups, then there are 3 per-finals for each racer. A vs B and C vs D. Then A vs C and B vs D. Then A vs D and B vs C. You get points based on your finishing postion in each pre-final. The lowest 20 go straight to the main event. The next 32 go to an LCQ. The rest go home. The top 12 in the LCQ go to the back of the main and we crown a chumpion,…er champion.
It’s a good way of getting a lot of racing and handling a big field. In the old days when the SuperNats really drew big fields, just making the main without going through the LCQ was a big deal.
I think there are some things in Mitch’s post that deserve more than just a quick brush off. First off, Mitch’s credentials need no introduction. He has more karting and motor racing experience than just about anyone posting or reading on this forum. For his accomplishments alone we should respect and listen to his opinions. In his role as VP for Pro Racing of the SCCA, he has far more experience and impact on high level motor sports than any one here. I also know that Mitch’s heart is still with karting. Every chance he gets, Mitch is out practicing with his kart for just the love of the sport and the exhileration karting gives. We should count ourselves lucky that a person in his position still loves our sport.
I has always been a strong advocate for fewer races in a regional championship. It makes each race bigger and more important. Also, the more varied tracks and venues it visits, the more prestige the series gains. If you step back and look at other major regional series, none visit a track more than once in a season.
Mitch also makes another very good point. A large series like the CSC has definetly reduced the numbers at the club level races. I have often contended that the average racer has the funds and time to do about 10 to 12 races in a season. If 7 of those dates are tied up in a regional series and one or two big deal events like the Nations Cup, Supernats or Rotax Grands, there is no time or money left for a club race. We can see that very clearly here, Action Karting dropped its club series this year and IMI is seeing reduced numbers from years past. I know many racers who are only doing the CSC and nothing else.
The club racer is the backbone of karting. The shops need them and the tracks need them. Yet the club racer is the very one who is being left out of this. Many a club racer is intimidated by the shear size of a CSC event and by the speed of the better racers. A strong club program gives new racers a place to hone their skills while a well supported regional series give the experienced racer the higher level of competition he/she desires. It is a win-win for everyone, track owners, racers and shops. In many ways the CSC has suplanted the club level racing giving new racers no place to start.
The CSC has had support from racers in Utah. Several have come over for both the CSC races in Grand Junction and Steamboat Springs. So while there may not be many that would do the entire sereis, there would be some and that’s good for karting.
I think Mitch’s ideas deserve more thought as to how such a series could be put together and how the club level can be increased. Its a good starting point for discussion.
That’s kind of funny coming from WKA. They insure Jacksonville and it has a high speed banked turn (you shift into 5th gear as you exit it) that leads on to an 1100′ straight. Top speed is well over 90 mph. The straight ends in a 90 deg left hander and the fence is not 50 feet off the track. Ask Marc E., he went through the fence and almost ended up on 103rd Street a year ago. We were all concerned but the PA annoucement was kind of funny. I’ll let Marc tell the story.
I can’t imagine that your track would be any more dangerious than Jacksonville. That is the most dangerious track I’ve ever seen and WKA holds Manufacturers Cup races there! Three years ago, Bobby Wilson almost ended up on the roof of the building they have right on the track. If his kart hadn’t been flying bottom first, Bobby would be dead.
I do remember a serious injury at SC. There was a guy from Grand Junction (?) who hit the concrete wall up in the boot. If I remember right, he had very serous internal injuries that almost got him. Does anyone know how that all turned out?
I do remember that 80 junior wreck. It was after the checker. Greg and Adrian came over the line first. The second group that was a few seconds behind them forgot the race was over after the line and someone ran over the top of another and all hell broke lose. No one was hurt but it sure scared the crap out of us parents.
Sandia is another place that is a bit dangerious. It is the only place that we had an ambulance ride. However, that time it wan’t the fault of the track or the drivers, that was just a racing accident. That goofy chicane on the front straight sure took its toll on front stub axles.
Second Creek had a long history here in Colorado. I remember going there 20 years ago to watch SCCA national events. But I also remember going to CDR in Castle Rock for SCCA events too so I guess that shows my age! I even remember going to Pueblo to watch SCCA events and seeing a guy in a 914-6 just smoke the field, not knowing at the time it was our own Grady Clay behind the wheel. I went to an event at the old Stapleton track where a friend took his shifter and they allowed him to race. They put him out with serveral Porsches and after he pounded them in the dirt, they told him not to come back!
But like all most all race tracks, it seems their time just runs out. I hope we do get another long track that is smooth enough for karts to run on. We raced at another Alan Wilson designed track, Gingerman in Michigan and it is a great track. Very smooth, wide open, fast yet technical. If you were unfortunate to go off there, all that happened was that you had to spend time cleaning the kart.
I know they (Pikes Peak) were having insurance issues. WKA didn’t want to cover the event without some changes made to the track layout. Maybe that did it in.
It would be nice to have a long track available for kart racing. Second Creek was just too dangerious for karts with the barriers and concrete walls. We have done a couple of long tracks back east and they can be a blast. Very close racing and very high speeds. A quality track design can be safe for karts.
Much of the knowledge you need about karting is only found from talking to other karters. The good thing is that karters in general are very willing to share what ever they know about karting with new karters.
As far as purchasing a used kart, some of the best deals on used karts are right here on this web site. A quality used kart can save you several thousand over a new package. On the other hand, a cheap beat up used kart is no bargin as many of the componets will need to be replaced. For example, a tired brake system can be expensive to replace as you just about have to buy all new componets as often times they are not rebuildable. Kart brakes tend to wear out after a couple of years of use. Ask any older Tony kart owner what brake parts cost! If the frame tubes are excessively flat spotted, the chassie is junk no matter what the price. A $4,000 used kart can be a much better deal than a $2,000 used kart depending on the condition. New karts can range from $4,000 to $6,000. Yet the $6,000 kart maybe the better deal once you look at the quality of the componets and the dealer’s service. The bottom line is that you can’t talk to enough racers or look at enough karts.
The main thing you have to determine is which Tag engine is right for you. The first thing I would do is answer two questions, what is your weight and where do you intend to race?
Your weight will in part determine which engines you should look at. For example, if you are 175# or under (195# if you are a 35+ age driver), you won’t want to look at any of the high weight engines such as Sonic. You would have to add too much lead to the kart to make minimum weight. On the other hand, if you are 210#, then the light weight engines like Rotax or Leopard are out as you will be way over weight for your class.
The second part on where you race is also a major factor. Since the engines are so different in performance characteristics, some are better at certain tracks than others.
Other factors to consider is how much do you wish to spend and what is your mechanical skill level. Some packages require more maintenance than others. The Rotax is king in the low cost to maintain department, along with the Biland. The high winders are higher maintenance engines. If you can do the work yourself, then it may not be as big an issue than if you need a shop to the do the work.
If you wish to call and talk aobut karting, I would be happy to answer any questions you have. My number at the shop is 303-781-7829.
Angie
They were up yesterday evening. So while your end was saying, no, no no, the receiveing end was yes. Don’t you just love computers?
Sorry we couldn’t make it this year. Between marching band and moving the shop, we just didn’t have the time to come up. Greg really wanted to defend his win from last year.
My hat comes off for all the winners and everyone involved. I know its a lot of work and I would just like to thank everyone for doing their part in making events like this so sucessful.
By the way results are up on mylaps
I hate to disapoint you guys but we are doing nothing on the carb. We are running stock tubes (what ever came from Rotax) and needles (K27). WE have gone to a bit larger pilots, 35/35 and other than that, I go off the Max Jet software for main and needle postion with no compensation. Gearing is 13/77 or 76 depending on which way we go. The engine is as purchased from SSC.
I do have one carb with the ICC style slide using stock internals but have not tried it at IMI yet.
The reason Greg is fast is because he has almost 9 years of experience running around IMI including class championship trophies and has traveled to over 20 different tracks around the country. He works at a kart track (Action Karting) and drives a kart almost every day. He also has had the good fortune to work with one of the best driver coachs around for more than two years, the same man who worked with Scott and Alex Speed when they were young.
I’ve been setting up karts for just as long and have tested just about every componet many times under all types of conditions at tracks from Florida to Oregon to Toronto to southern California.
The motor is good for about 10% of the total, chassis 30%, driver 60%.
We will work with anyone to help make them faster. But if they want to concentrate on the motor, I won’t waste my time.
