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Freezeman,
You are right. I agree with everything you said.
Do you agree that there needs to be rules? That everyone needs to be clear on what rules are being used? And that the rules should be enforced?We ran legal, and always will. It would be nice for us to be able to direct a new karter to a copy of the rules that apply to their class, as well as to the general race procedures. I don’t see where that should be unreasonable or even complicated, but somehow it is.
I hesitate to respond at all, but I think I need to explain where I am coming from on the rules. I don?t really want to make things complicated either, but more than that, I want it to be fair. Maybe I should let you all in on what happened in the Junior 1 class. Then you can decide what the best way to fix this problem is?
There WERE karts DQed this year for tech issues at a CSC event? 2 karts in the Junior 1 class at the 7-13 IMI event. Those karts were not running for CSC points, but it was at a CSC event (one of the few, if not the only post race tech inspection). Whether or not the DQed parties were intentionally ?cheating?, I do not know. I do believe that there has to be a level playing field, and you have to know what you are up against. Until the day that Brad tore down and then DQed two karts in the Junior 1 class, we, personally, were assuming (don’t say it) some things about the rules that turned out to be false. One of those things was that we were free to adjust our engine by changing jets. This happens to be one of the items that caused a DQ in the Junior 1 class, on an Animal motor. I would have never thought that they would not allow us to adjust jetting! This is just one example. The three different motors in our Junior 1 class would also run under three different sets of rules in IKF, and other sets in different organizations. Two would be allowed to jet their engines, and the Animal cannot.
In the initial press release for the Shockwave Karting Colorado Sprint Championship series it said, ?If your engine is legal IKF, SKUSA, Stars or WKA, it will be legal in this series.? Take that for what you want, but if you don?t race in any of those organizations, and show up to race, what rules are you held to?
Thanks, and sorry to be a pain,
Angie MacEwenChaz,
You are right about not breeching the copyright laws, and I would never be a part of that kind of thing. My offer to type up and make the rules available was NOT an offer to copy the IKF and SKUSA rulebooks with a few modifications. Really, Chaz, I would think you would know me at least that well. I probably did not explain myself very well. and I apologize for that. (Yes, I was WRONG – but at least I admit it!!)
Back to the problem at hand…. this year, what rules were used to tech, say the Junior 1s, or any other class? That isn’t any better. My point of saying we should START by looking at IKF or SKUSA, for instance, in creating our own rules is to make it easier on those who are trying to compete in more than one series. I know that you TaG racers have discussed the weight issues in this way, trying to keep it somewhat close, so that it is not a dramatic change from going from CSC to a Rotax or other TaG event, correct? So, it seems reasonable to keep our rules in line with these other orgs. Maybe starting with theirs and modifying is not a good way to go, maybe continuing to build on what we have is a better way – What we have is not much, though.
I don’t know what would be involved in aligning with one or more organizations, but I don’t see where one would cover all of our classes, and then 2 is going to cause confusion.I probably should have just kept my mouth shut, waited for the meeting, and voiced my opinions there. My offer still stands, tho, to type up, and make available any rules that are agreed upon at the meetings.
OK, well I have to get dinner going, but had to say something to defend myself!
We still need ideas to keep flowing.
angie 😳
I think you are all missing the point!!!! CSC is NOT SKUSA or IKF or CIK or FIK or any of the other organisations! So why would you want to use their rule book??
Jon, Isn’t that pretty close to what I said?
The whole point is to run a series that consists of rules and classes that the competitors want. I know we only raced one race with you guys but what I saw was a great bunch of people racing what they wanted to race and having fun,
AND let’s keep it that way!
it just needs some refinement. Keep the rules as thay were last year just add some minor refinements and explanations, and most of all enforce them!!!
One thing that you may not realize is that our rules as they were last year WERE SKUSA and IKF rules, with the exceptions listed in our class rules, plus a bunch of other exceptions that were left unwritten. So, it does make sense to use those as a starting point, and modify until most are in agreement. As far as the enforcement of the new rules, I think that is one area that most everyone is in agreement on.
@chazilla wrote:
That’s great angie, but I don’t think you realize what that would entail.
Chaz, I certainly do realize what that would entail. I wouldn’t offer to be a part of such a huge undertaking unless I thought it was important.
A comprehensive set of rules – one that would satisfy the needs of the series would be an immense undertaking.
Yes it will be a big project, but given that this is the birth of a series that we want to be credible, to grow, and to prosper, I certainly think it worth the time and effort to create our own set of rules. You are ready to have a paid series Race Director and Tech Director, but not have our own rules?! The system we had for this first year worked ok, mainly because everyone cut a little slack to the series because it was in its first year. I don?t think racers are going to be so forgiving as time goes on.
At this point, if someone is interested in the series, that has never run at our local Colorado tracks, and ask for the rules, what are we going to say?. Shifters by SKUSA, except we have these tire specs, these weights and the this and the that; the rest of the classes run by IKF, except for this rule and that rule; then there is the race procedure – I doubt that we will all agree on one organizations current procedures over another, my guess is it will be a combination of each, plus some of what we do around here. It would be a whole lot better to say ?here is the rule book?. Everyone has to know what they are running against, and what is required of them.
If we were starting from scratch, it would be much more difficult, but considering that we are currently racing under SKUSA and IKF rules (loosely), it will be slightly less difficult (I didn?t say easy). In the long run, if we are going to continue the series, and have it grow, we will have to have our own rules OR be sanctioned by an organization that we can agree on their rules.
Our current set doesn’t even cover all the real tech issues surrounding the classes and there’s a lot more to competition rules than tech specs.
You are right, our ?current set? as you call them, are really only a few modifications that we have added. They don?t begin to cover all of the exceptions to the rules that we currently have. For instance, in the Junior 1 class, if we were following IKF rules exactly, there would be no electric starters used, the pull start must be in place. Also, there is an assumed “open clutch”, which is not documented. I am sure these kind of assumed exceptions are in every class.
Anyway, it makes sense that since we are using other rule sets now, it won?t be impossible to mold them into our own. Take a copy of each and start highlighting and marking out, making notes, etc. Of course, the actual copying of the rules and notes into a finished form will take a little time, but certainly can be accomplished. Once they are completed, updating them will not be so hard either. As far as printing costs, I believe most racers would not hesitate to pay as much as $10 for a hard copy of the rules, which would easily cover printing costs. However, if it is available on the internet to download and print for FREE, I imagine the majority of racers would choose this.
Better to find a sanctioning body or bodies whose rules work for us and save ourselves the headache and printing bills that we’d get trying to write up our own.
It is wrong to require people to run by rules that they cannot easily get their hands on. In order to get a legal copy of the IKF rules, you have to become a member, at a cost of $50. If we charged only a fraction of that, it would easily cover our expenses. How fair is it that the shifters don’t have to pay for rules, because the SKUSA rules can be downloaded for free, but that others have to pay? And since we still are going to have to have a written set of exceptions to the rules, tire specs, AND specify which set of race procedure rules we are going to agree upon, it makes sense to create our own.
I am really interested in what others have to say on this subject. I have spoken to many folks around the pits, and read the forums, and it seems like rules are pretty important to the majority of racers.
Angie 😕
@Jon Betts wrote:
BUT you must have a coherent set of well writen rules for the tech team to enforce.
This is SOOO true. I have offered to type up the final copy AND make them available from this web site.
angie
The SuperNats are November 12 – 16th at the Rio in Las Vegas. The classes that will be run are SuperPro, S1, Formula MX, K1, 80 Jr, 60 Novice, G1, TAG SR, and TAG Masters. More information can be found at http://www.skusaonline.com.
angie 🙂
Jon,
You will always be welcome to race with us in the series! If you want to attend all the races and go for year end points, I don’t think there are any objections to that.
As this was the final event of the CSC series, points were only awarded to those who had previously received points. All of the prior races were held in conjunction with the tracks’ local races, and racers were given the option of racing for CSC points, or not. I am not sure how this may change for next year. Any suggestions?
Angie
Chaz,
I have been trying to figure this one out. If I leave it so that I am automatically logged in each time, I don’t have problems, but if I log in each time, sometimes it takes a second try to log in. I don’t know if I can fix this, I will work on it. Like I said, if you check the box to automatically sign in each time, then there shouldn’t be a problem. Sorry about that.
keep the good ideas going!!
angie 8)
Hi all – Welcome! and thanks for moving your discussion over here to The Colorado Karter. I am glad to see everyone excited about next year’s series, and getting all of these ideas out so soon. I am planning on staying involved, and being a part of this thing again next year, and beyond.
I haven’t heard anyone talking much about the class list for next year. Same classes? dropping any? Adding any? Are these 12 what everyone wants? Who is changing classes for next year? Maybe we should see what people are planning on running next year?
I definitely agree that we need a rulebook. I have offered to take the notes and put it into print, and on the website. Like has been said before, even though we run by loose IKF and SKUSA specs, there are variations, and not all of the rules are readily available. I think that even if we are running by those rules, we need to put it in our own format, and everyone needs to have one. Then there are no excuses. Yes, there will always be someone that will find and abuse the gray areas, or loopholes. I feel the majority of our racers (and I hope I am right) want to race fair. Then there is the issue of doing post race tech to enforce those rules.
Oh, I have more on my list, but have to get the kids off to bed.
Thank you everyone for all of your kind words and support. It has been a busy season, I have learned an incredible amount about the sport, and gotten to know a really great bunch of racers, and sponsors, and track owners, etc. It is clear to see that we are all (ok, the majority anyway) on the same page as far as having a good, competitive, fun, safe series. Keep the ideas flowing!
Thanks,
AngieCongratulations to all of the 2003 winners!!
You guys waste no time…. I just got home an hour ago! I do have the totals calculated for season points, and I will work on getting them updated on the web site tonight.
On the year end banquet, I don’t now specifics, only that it is supposed to be in conjunction with the IMI year end thing. Last year that was in November. I am pretty sure that the plan is down to 5th place with trophies. On the money, I don’t know. As soon as I do have specifics on those things, I will post it.
angie
I think the idea was just being discussed, and will be brought up at the drivers’ meeting. Maybe not a good idea for this year, being discussed at this late date; but maybe this is an idea for next year.
Also, points are not going to be given to the out of staters that are just coming in for the one event. Points will be given to those who have previously earned points in the series only.
Angie MacEwen
Thank you Tyler. I knew that little ranting by #12 was not typical of our local Colorado kart racers.
I look forward to seeing you all in Steamboat!!
angie 8)
Well, yesterday when I posted that link, it said:
Friday – 66high/37low 10% chance of rain, partly cloudy
Saturday – 62hi/32lo 30% , few showers
Sunday 67/33 10%, partly cloudyBut as of this morning is said
Friday – 63/36 10% partly cloudy
Saturday – 48/28 30%, few showers
Sunday – 62/28 10% partly cloudyangie[/b]
I don’t want to spoil your fun, BOYS, but really, come on, at least have the decency to put your name on your posts. As it is you sound like some kids on the school playground! Now, I want those names and kart numbers so I can do a good write up on whatever class this is that you are bickering about. I will give the winner a great bio spot in the newsletter, too.
If you THINK you have the best kart, and you THINK you are the best driver, there is only one way to find out, so just show up and race!!
OK, now you can go back to your bickering!
see you in Steamboat,
Angie MacEwen
