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I think you are all missing the point!!!! CSC is NOT SKUSA or IKF or CIK or FIK or any of the other organisations! So why would you want to use their rule book??
Jon, Isn’t that pretty close to what I said?
The whole point is to run a series that consists of rules and classes that the competitors want. I know we only raced one race with you guys but what I saw was a great bunch of people racing what they wanted to race and having fun,
AND let’s keep it that way!
it just needs some refinement. Keep the rules as thay were last year just add some minor refinements and explanations, and most of all enforce them!!!
One thing that you may not realize is that our rules as they were last year WERE SKUSA and IKF rules, with the exceptions listed in our class rules, plus a bunch of other exceptions that were left unwritten. So, it does make sense to use those as a starting point, and modify until most are in agreement. As far as the enforcement of the new rules, I think that is one area that most everyone is in agreement on.
Maybe I didn’t see a full set of rules, (just what is on Doug’s site) my interpretation was that Pro 125 was an open class where just about anything was OK except rotary engines, and Novice 125 was open except for carb size and ignition module. One thing I noticed was that SKUSA specifically outlaws shift without lift I assumed this was allowed in all classes at the CSC this year? did I miss something?
@Angie MacEwen wrote:
I think you are all missing the point!!!! CSC is NOT SKUSA or IKF or CIK or FIK or any of the other organisations! So why would you want to use their rule book??
Jon, Isn’t that pretty close to what I said?
The whole point is to run a series that consists of rules and classes that the competitors want. I know we only raced one race with you guys but what I saw was a great bunch of people racing what they wanted to race and having fun,
AND let’s keep it that way!
it just needs some refinement. Keep the rules as thay were last year just add some minor refinements and explanations, and most of all enforce them!!!
One thing that you may not realize is that our rules as they were last year WERE SKUSA and IKF rules, with the exceptions listed in our class rules, plus a bunch of other exceptions that were left unwritten. So, it does make sense to use those as a starting point, and modify until most are in agreement. As far as the enforcement of the new rules, I think that is one area that most everyone is in agreement on.
We can, and ultimately would have to use some mish-mash of rules from at least 2 orgs – SKUSA and somebody else (IKF/WKA). However, if we go about it in such a away that we take Jr1 rules from IKF, lets say, and just modify the weights, copy everything over to our own document and call it ours then we’re in for some trouble. Any rule set you can mention, whether you can download it for free, or have to pay 50 bucks for it, is covered under international copyright laws. That means if we do anything with that copy without the owner’s expressed permission we leave certain individuals open to a crushing law suit. If it can be demonstrated that we took our rules from them and put our own endorsment on it without permission we’d loose. Win or loose you still have to answer the suit.
You may also expose the oganization whose rules we borrowed liable in a civil court. There has been such action, or so I’m told.
Then who will protect Angie when IKF or whoever sends in their lawyers. CSC isn’t a formal organization and can offer no protection to those acting in its name. Sponsors could be named and speaking as a sponsor, I would not like to be named in a lawsuit.
There are plenty of good reasons to formally align with one or more sanctioning bodies. Having a legal set of rules to work from is only one.
Hooking up with SKUSA, IKF, or WKA doesn’t mean we have to go lock-step with their rules, but there is a right way to go about it.Yep, total and complete origanizations can take the fun out of anything. Organizations then become exspensive/restrictive/exclusive. It’s a tuff double edge sword when it comes to organizing a dangerous hobbiest sport.
Chaz,
You are right about not breeching the copyright laws, and I would never be a part of that kind of thing. My offer to type up and make the rules available was NOT an offer to copy the IKF and SKUSA rulebooks with a few modifications. Really, Chaz, I would think you would know me at least that well. I probably did not explain myself very well. and I apologize for that. (Yes, I was WRONG – but at least I admit it!!)
Back to the problem at hand…. this year, what rules were used to tech, say the Junior 1s, or any other class? That isn’t any better. My point of saying we should START by looking at IKF or SKUSA, for instance, in creating our own rules is to make it easier on those who are trying to compete in more than one series. I know that you TaG racers have discussed the weight issues in this way, trying to keep it somewhat close, so that it is not a dramatic change from going from CSC to a Rotax or other TaG event, correct? So, it seems reasonable to keep our rules in line with these other orgs. Maybe starting with theirs and modifying is not a good way to go, maybe continuing to build on what we have is a better way – What we have is not much, though.
I don’t know what would be involved in aligning with one or more organizations, but I don’t see where one would cover all of our classes, and then 2 is going to cause confusion.I probably should have just kept my mouth shut, waited for the meeting, and voiced my opinions there. My offer still stands, tho, to type up, and make available any rules that are agreed upon at the meetings.
OK, well I have to get dinner going, but had to say something to defend myself!
We still need ideas to keep flowing.
angie 😳
I usually don’t reply in forum’s however here is my two cents worth. I started karting this spring. Never even knew it existed and have been loving it. All of us have been benefiting from rules that have been written by membership organizations to cover all of the classes that we race in. When the going gets tough, I see people grabbing their “Rule Book” in order to find the infraction, yet in the same breath, don’t want to spend the money to join the organization that wrote the rules in the first place. As a new comer, joining SKUSA was my first step. I have a license, and have been racing all summer. The biggest let-down I had was travelling to the US Amateur Championships. After being “tech’d” 6-10 different times here, I thought I was prepared, but to find out, the rules we were following at home didn’t apply to anywhere else. So much for the time and money spent getting the kart up to specs and training to race. My point is, there are rules that work for all of our karts: SKUSA for shifters, TAG USA for the TAG class, and either IKF or WKA for the rest. All we have to do is decide to follow them. Our Karts will carry more value because the meet the national specs, all drivers will be able to get a set of rules, and some consistency will be in place without having to reinvent the wheel. If drivers want to travel and experience other venues, their karts will be ready, and not have to change it to race.
I’m not a fan of having to join several organizations just to race, however there is value in doing so. I look forward to next year and running again at all the tracks, whatever the organization decides and whatever the rules will be. Thanks,
Jim Keesling
84D, Senior TAG and Shifter
Dog House Racing
Team McLubeI would ask those who ultimately end up writing the rules for the CSC classes get together with Brad, JB, and Stacey and make the rules as close to the national Orgs as possible. That way the current racers and the new comers who have the cash can go to the national events without having to wory about not passing tech.
I think the CSC needs to keep it simple! This years rules were fine for the most part. I can only speak of the class I ran and have done so in the first post.
Everyone has the right to protest another competitor if they feel there is something not legitimate. The protestor should put up a small tear down fee to have the accused torn down. If there is no infraction found then the accused keeps the money and their position. If the accused is found to be a filthy rotten cheater, 😈 then the protester gets their money back and then we burn the cheater at the stake in a pile of used tires! 😀
It is up to us to police ourselves. Lets try to keep this simple & fun! Lets look at the class we each race, and list any changes we would like to see. Try to keep it to the class that will affect you the most or plan to run.
If we need to write our own rulebook then lets get started. That’s what this post is all aboutAbout cheating, I can only speak to the classes we ran in. I know how my karts were set-up, we ran to SKUSA rules for the boys respective class, right down ot the tires. My reasons for doing that were simple. It made it easy for me as a tuner to tune the karts for my set-up, engine, tires, chassis would be consistant throughout the season and I could use what I learned locally if and when we wanted to play at the national level. My drivers, would not need to learn the differing charateristics of tires and motors if I didn’t alter them during the year. If someone was cheating in our respective classes, they didn’t cheat enough.
I hope all of you responding on this thread realize exactly why the CSC series was formed in the first place !
Let me remind you , in case you’ve forgotten —
I’ll start with SKUSA , their reprutation for changing rules during the race season dates way back to the first year that the G-1 class was formed , Age 40 & up , then with profound wisdom , just before the Las Vegas Race , SKUSA announces the age requirement was dropped to age 35 !
We can speculate on many reasons as to why this was done , I have my own thoughts . Then , later SKUSA decides not to invite the Novice 125 racers to any National events and hosts a National Amature Championship race , But the “AMATURES” were not invited ! Go figure !
The elimination of S-2 replacing it with a MX class still befuddles me ,Life seemed so simple when we had S-1 , S-2 ,S-3 and G-1 , the ladder system was clear-cut ! Take a look at it now !
Confusion reins !
SKUSA has had little , or no leader-ship since Rusty Newberry was re-placed , here in the Mountain Region !
Now then , the IKF , is yet another story , I am amused and astonished , at the non-growth !
We want to race and have fun without all the politics !
Let’s keep changes to an absolute minimum , Any one who wants to race the CSC series will have someone to race with and will have little trouble re-configuring their Kart to comply with SKUSA OR IKF , in most cases all they have to do is add or subtract some weights !
J.B.For the last few days I have been reading the posts in this forum and wondering why this is becoming a complicated issue. What has been wrong with the system so far? Weight, tires, front or rear brakes, carb size, ignition, wheel base and safety issues have been the extent so far and have seemed to work pretty well. I haven’t heard of any problems regarding “cheating”.
With the exception of a few of us, kart racing at the local tracks will be the extent of our racing career. For me it’s about the fun, competition and pushing yourself to the next level, whatever that may be. I would like to think that if only I had a new kart with all the “goodies” I could win every race. “NOT”! The fact is that at most of our levels, mine included, it’s 95% driver no matter the kart. Tires and weight should be the major limiting factor in each class of similar karts. It’s easy to see and no teardown is required.
Maybe the pro class and some of the slower karts should have more stringent regulations, but other shifters should be motos or ICC’s with minimal restrictions. Otherwise, there will be the people who will follow the rules out of obligation, and others that will find the grey or illegal areas and take advantage of the situation. Let’s face it, who has the manpower to enforce them anyway? Maybe JB would, as he has nothing to do.
I hesitate to respond at all, but I think I need to explain where I am coming from on the rules. I don?t really want to make things complicated either, but more than that, I want it to be fair. Maybe I should let you all in on what happened in the Junior 1 class. Then you can decide what the best way to fix this problem is?
There WERE karts DQed this year for tech issues at a CSC event? 2 karts in the Junior 1 class at the 7-13 IMI event. Those karts were not running for CSC points, but it was at a CSC event (one of the few, if not the only post race tech inspection). Whether or not the DQed parties were intentionally ?cheating?, I do not know. I do believe that there has to be a level playing field, and you have to know what you are up against. Until the day that Brad tore down and then DQed two karts in the Junior 1 class, we, personally, were assuming (don’t say it) some things about the rules that turned out to be false. One of those things was that we were free to adjust our engine by changing jets. This happens to be one of the items that caused a DQ in the Junior 1 class, on an Animal motor. I would have never thought that they would not allow us to adjust jetting! This is just one example. The three different motors in our Junior 1 class would also run under three different sets of rules in IKF, and other sets in different organizations. Two would be allowed to jet their engines, and the Animal cannot.
In the initial press release for the Shockwave Karting Colorado Sprint Championship series it said, ?If your engine is legal IKF, SKUSA, Stars or WKA, it will be legal in this series.? Take that for what you want, but if you don?t race in any of those organizations, and show up to race, what rules are you held to?
Thanks, and sorry to be a pain,
Angie MacEwenAngie, If it came down to sticking to the rules, there really wasn’t such a thing as a Jr I animal class either in IKF. That class adapted the adult rules for the class from demands of our local racers wanting to utilize the new OHV motor. If you want to race something you have to choose a class and know what the rules are. It doesn’t matter if the rule breakage is intentional or not there was a set of rules agreed upon that would take someone reading them to know what they were. If a racer doesn’t read the rules and understand them then they shouldn’t be too upset when they are DQ’ed. There is a funny story about one of them DQ’s about a jet pack sold and returned. Just because there is no speed limit sign doesn’t mean there isn’t a speed limit.
Freezeman,
You are right. I agree with everything you said.
Do you agree that there needs to be rules? That everyone needs to be clear on what rules are being used? And that the rules should be enforced?We ran legal, and always will. It would be nice for us to be able to direct a new karter to a copy of the rules that apply to their class, as well as to the general race procedures. I don’t see where that should be unreasonable or even complicated, but somehow it is.
I believe winning, or running at the front, requires equal doses of driver, set-up and HP. If you come up short on any of these three you will not be competitive in a competitive race. So, having people follow chassis and engine rules is very important. Most organized amateur leagues for stick and ball sports, both kid and adult, have referees to ensure that the competitors follow the rules. Why wouldn’t amateur racing?
Either we have rules and tech/protest or we shouldn’t bother with either. No sense having rules if there is not a tech or at least a protest teardown procedure to verify compliance. Or perhaps we can have a claimer price for motors?
There are two reasons for this:
A) Without tech or protest, the slow people will have an excuse to complain about their lack of performance. Who wants to hear that?
B) Without tech or protest, those who follow the rules and get beat have a reason to not bother racing. Do we want smaller fields?
Having no rules or loose rules is OK too, but then it becomes a contest of who can build or purchase the fastest equipment. The need for driving ability is diminished.
I realize that money also buys speed in classes with tight rules, but everyone knows (or can easily find out) what it costs to run at the front and they can decide what class to run. We have 4-stroke classes that cost a fraction of a 125shifter for a first class motor. We could easily have a sealed class: Rotax.
I would like to see the stigma of protest and teardown removed. It should be considered a compliment to be torn down and exonerated. Likewise, someone who is caught purposely cheating should be ridiculed.
I am OK with either tight rules / good tech / protest procedure or no rules. We need to stay away from the middle ground of having rules without enforcement.
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