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@EGunderson wrote:
@jdavis-403 wrote:
I find it odd how everyone says they lose money having a Club race like CKT/CSC. And turn around and say Corporate events and rentals gain money. Isn’t a club race a corporate event? This is excluding races sponsored by the track in question. I am specifically asking about events like CKT and CSC. Why are they costing the track money when rentals put wear and tear on their rental equipment? Shouldn’t CKT and CSC make MORE money than rentals and on par with Corporate events? I would really like to see the math in this regards. I may have some recommendations in how to make this profitable. I mean I pay $85 to race 30 laps in one day. Test and tunes varies from $40-$50. Rentals IIRC run around $30 or so for 10 or so laps. How many of those do you get in a day? What does Corporate events run? The math you want to do is compare a CSC/CKT race day profits to rental and corporate events. If there is a discrepancy from one to another raise the price on the lower option to line up. It just seems to me that tracks are making excuses to not run events when really they dictate the price. If people are not showing up maybe re-evaluate. I know we have a lot of smart people here but what I have been hearing from Track owners is making me think we need to re-evaluate our priorities. I would really like to see the real numbers to understand exactly what the problem is.
The cost of insurance for all participants, officials, and track staff is a large chunk of the cost to running a race day for most series. In addition, staffing costs, materials cost (just for example think how much it costs to print ~200 schedules for a day!), etc, it adds up. At the end of the day, at least locally/regionally, most karting series aren’t out to make a killing financially. Tracks in Colorado are great at working with racing series to put on good race days, but no one is walking away with millions.
Insurance, officials, and track staff. Those items in my opinion should be covered by the track already with their staff and their insurance. You are using the tracks resources when you are at that track you should be able to use ALL the resource including staff and insurance. One would think that the insurance is covered due to the track has you sign the same form when you do a test and tune so I know they pay for it. If the Club is paying for insurance on top of the other then there is some serious stealing of money from the insurance companies as insurance should already be covered by the track insurance.
In regards to printing 200 schedules and other materials. That isn’t covered under the track that is covered by the club. The club has membership dues that you pay at the start of the year. That should cover all those expenses. The race day fee ($85) should cover the cost of that track not obtaining the money from rentals. I am still looking for the hard math though. Saying these things I can cover in the fees we already provide. Just trying to understand how the track is losing money on this when they should at least break even (from a normal rental day) or come a little ahead.
It just seems to me that insurance companies are double charging the club and the track for the same coverage. The track staff should attend/run these events as it really is essentially a corporate event (which track staff should run those events). Also, think about it this way. Corporations having an event at the track doesn’t have to buy insurance. They just sign the form at the track that already has insurance. See what I am saying there? And all extra material and other Club staff help running the event should be paid via the club membership and part of the race fee. This should leave enough for the track to cover everything else. Still feel the money we spend should cover everything. I would love to see the hard math to show exactly where the track is losing money.
I find it odd how everyone says they lose money having a Club race like CKT/CSC. And turn around and say Corporate events and rentals gain money. Isn’t a club race a corporate event? This is excluding races sponsored by the track in question. I am specifically asking about events like CKT and CSC. Why are they costing the track money when rentals put wear and tear on their rental equipment? Shouldn’t CKT and CSC make MORE money than rentals and on par with Corporate events? I would really like to see the math in this regards. I may have some recommendations in how to make this profitable. I mean I pay $85 to race 30 laps in one day. Test and tunes varies from $40-$50. Rentals IIRC run around $30 or so for 10 or so laps. How many of those do you get in a day? What does Corporate events run? The math you want to do is compare a CSC/CKT race day profits to rental and corporate events. If there is a discrepancy from one to another raise the price on the lower option to line up. It just seems to me that tracks are making excuses to not run events when really they dictate the price. If people are not showing up maybe re-evaluate. I know we have a lot of smart people here but what I have been hearing from Track owners is making me think we need to re-evaluate our priorities. I would really like to see the real numbers to understand exactly what the problem is.
I agree to the 1 series recommendation. CKT appears to have every class plus Jr 1 and Jr 2 LO206 classes. Apparently they have a Junior/Senior/Master Tag that runs with open tag iirc. That based on my understand has all the classes we run in CO. I don’t understand why the CSC racers only race the CSC when there is another series I run in that has all the same classes. Just seems like those that race in CSC don’t race in CKT but those that race in CKT also race in CSC. Maybe those that are skipping those races should come out and support CKT. CKT has the numbers and is growing. They just split the LO206 light and heavy classes as it was getting too big to run all on the same track. Have you done that with Rotax lately. 😉 Just saying the participation and members are out there. Let’s all focus on a Club that supports all tracks in colorado. CKT appears to be that one at the moment as they visit all but Grand Junction. Which I would recommend they add IMHO.
Question for those that don’t race CKT but race CSC and National races. Why don’t you race CKT? Would really like to understand the reason as I run both and have a blast in both. Granted, most of the top races in 206 come to both so its a lot of fun. 🙂
@Mike_Weber wrote:
I’m welding my chain to my sprocket so I can get past the parade lap @ IMI and join in the fun. Or at least be on the track to watch it in front of me rather than on the infield!
Seriously, though, I’m taking your advice, Jeremy, and getting a JTP mount.
Best money spent!!!!! I LOVE that JTP mount. I bet you will no longer have that chain falling off issue. 🙂 If you need some help mounting it let me know. A little confusing at first but once it is setup it is SOLID. Also, I bet this mount will outlast your chassis. lol So really, you could use it for your next kart too. Very well built!
LOL Hey, I gave you the spot back!!! What else do you want?!?!?!?! 😉 😉
Though, looking at the video I didn’t hit you that hard. lol Maybe if you got consistent I wouldn’t have hit you there. 😉 😉
In all seriousness, I LOVED the battles we had this past weekend and all the chatting! Can’t wait for IMI!! If the weather holds out I will be out there this weekend. You should head out there too!!
I said I had one when you gave me the broken part. 😉 lol I will bring it with me to IMI for the next race or if you will be there this coming weekend we can take care of it there. Damn that guy that hit you!!!!!! You should PROTEST because he gave you the spot back. lol 😉 😉
No requirement to buy tires at the race. Though, they need to be duro’s and the correct size.
In regards to rain tires I believe they are open but please someone that knows for sure confirm that. 🙂
Yes, CSC will be running Duro Tires. Unser karting and Events Centennial has some tires based on my understanding.
In my opinion, trying to find a comparable 4-stroke to 206 is a bit of a waste with this community due to 206s are the best 4-stroke I have seen out here. They are cheap, last a long time, and all are competitive as long as you set the carb correctly. Rebuilding the 206 you can do a lot to improve horsepower. Granted, some of that stuff means breaking the seal BUT we can setup a rule set that works to keep things the same. OR we could just do an open 206 class. With an open 206 class based on the rules of CKT we could run that in the open tag class (Rodney or anyone else please correct me if I am wrong. Just going off what Rodney told me.). This would allow us to “fine-tune” the class specifics. Also if SBR is willing to add a class I am all for it.
I just feel trying to compete against the 206 for 4-stroke power is going to be an up hill battle that just isn’t going to win out. This motor has different options that could be done to make it faster. Just depends on what you want to do or allow for a specific class. I would love to see what this Briggs engine can do with the restrictions taken off (i.e Rev limiter, broken seals, different carb, maybe even different fuel). 😉
@Mac_49 wrote:
Chuck buddy lol I don’t understand why you’re trying to bash on an idea so furiously.
There are tricks to a 206 builders don’t share that give a LEGAL advantage, and, if given the correct setup can substantially have a power increase against those that aren’t, per say, built correctly.
Your 30+ hp comment about the flatties is very true, but you said a Wazoom was a maxed out flathead which, from what if sounds like with your history, you should know that’s a false statement. There’s even a Super Blue that is used for drag and outperforms this regular Blue.
In regards to pricing here’s my 2 cents. UNLESS YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU’RE DOING, most will buy from a “reputable builder”. After checking and calling many many builders for package pricings, the cheapest I’ve found for a “Big Name” LO206 builder is $795 ready to go minus clutch. If you DO understand these motors well enough then yes, buying the motor with the extras to get it running and tuned correctly YOURSELF will be a bit cheaper but you run the risk of not having a top performing motor.
As for the Blues….yes, flatheads have died out due to the OHV design. We get that. And because of this, flatheads have been at their all time cheapest prices ever besides when they first came out.
All 3 of the wazooms I have were purchased under $300 A PIECE. I sent in my worst motor for a rebuild to see what the cost would be. The only parts that were salvageable on the motor was the rod, crank and cam. The motor had been sitting long enough that rust had started getting inside. The builder was able to clean everything up, buy all the parts, assemble it and perform break-in for only $475. I have all receipts for it if you’d like.
So with that said, you’re priced just a tad cheaper than a “Big Name” builder but unlike the 206’s, these motors can be rebuilt top to bottom up to +35 overbore and still be legal, which, even if you had to bore +10 over every rebuild, you’re still getting 3 seasons out of the motor itself.Ok, my biggest gripe about this is, from my understanding, you’re not even running the SBR series. I’m not intruding on the CKT or any other series AT ALL. This DOES NOT affect you, the classes or series you run, yet you still want to get involved with something you’re not even competing in. Lee at SBR is very happy with the idea of bringing a new class in if there’s enough interest and I’m trying to find a class that is easy to tech, good motors to maintain and would be such a fun history lesson for most that have never ran anything but OHV engines or 2-strokes. Not only that, but those that have never heard a pack of flatties running together is missing out on a fun time.
I appreciate the concern about introducing another class, I don’t appreciate the criticism or bashing of an idea to bring something new to the table….especially if you aren’t going to be involved at all, in any way, of either the series or the class itself.
I’m not asking for 30+ people to get involved like the LO206 has been able to produce and I’m highly appreciative that it has done so. I’m only asking 4 participants that may be interested in running these oldies but goodies and having a FUN TIME doing so.Hey Mac, I personally think an open LO206 might be better than a whole different engine package. A lot of 206 drivers have 206s that need crankshaft work or something similar that would need to break the seal. How about instead of trying for a full new engine class we use what we already have and allow those that have 206 engines use them with minimal changes. Like for example a broken seal 206 class. Maybe increase the rev limiter or something. Make it really simple instead of buying a whole new engine for what you are suggesting. I like the idea of an easy to maintain upgrade to the 206 but I think staying with the 206 base would be the best option. What you will run into with this 206 community is price of entry. If they can use the same engine and just make a few minor changes (under $300) you will get more participation. Cost is EVERYTHING in this 206 community, think 1500 for a fully ready kart WITH tires. Anything higher than that and people start to question it. Now, selling this to the Rotax community you might be able to get them to pay more as a typical entry for one of those is like 4k. So really, its a matter of price and availability.
@Mac_49 wrote:
@jdavis-403 wrote:
How about some World Formula or Animal racing with retired lo206s 😉 😉 A bunch of 206 drivers have some old 206s around that would be great to convert. 😉
Already taken care of……
http://www.fastermotors.net/206mod.htmlYep, 😉 I was thinking of that when I posted. Though, one of my engines that I want to convert needs some crank shaft work. So I would need to break the seal to fix that. Its a really good motor just didn’t have the clutch on correctly. Learned the hard way it seems. lol Floating clutches are NOT good for crankshafts!!!!!
How about some World Formula or Animal racing with retired lo206s 😉 😉 A bunch of 206 drivers have some old 206s around that would be great to convert. 😉
@Rodney Ebersole wrote:
The Lo206 classes, light and heavy which is at this time run together would have to be split into two and ran separately before we would need to worry about having LCQ’s and such.
If the Lo206 classes do grow enough to be split that would open the door for Lo206 racers to compete in booth heavy and light if they feel the need to.Would LOVE LOVE LOVE to see this happen. I know we have a few drivers that would do that. lol Me included. I am having a hard time deciding which class I want to run in this year. I am currently in a weight loss battle to drop 30 pounds to give me that option. Also just need to drop the weight to be more healthy. There are a lot of new drivers in the 206 that are practicing. Seeing a solid 7 or 8 on a given Saturday/Sunday for 206 at one track. New drivers showing up left and right. Also have some drivers that were driving other classes joining up due to the cheap entry into the class.
In regards to Duros and how they last. Yes, I agree that they do last an entire season (If you only run one series and practice lightly). But would say that if you run them in practice (practice on none race weekends) and two race series you will need to get new fronts as they will wear faster than the rears. As CSC, CKT, and SBR series will be running Duros with the same weight classes I anticipate that the tire purchases will go up.
My recommendation to all the places that are selling duros. Order more fronts than rears as the fronts do wear faster and I am always buying a set of fronts about 3 races left in the season. With three series all running Duros I anticipate more wear meaning quicker replacements.
Yeah, IMI doesn’t like Duro’s for some reason. Not sure why. They would make money selling them. With all the 206 drivers in town it would be stupid not to keep stock. Podium runs out all the time due to the amount of drivers buying tires. Granted, they go for a full season but still.. I heard like 40 drivers are expected this year for CKT. Just a rumor I heard while talking to guys at the track. If this turns out to be true this is FANTASTIC!!!!!!!
You might want to check with Podium as well. They had a delivery on its way IIRC.
