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Hey all, I’ve spoken with Lee Seigel out at SBR about an idea of introducing…or re-introducing a class.
In short, he said if we have at least 4 entries, he’ll make it a class.
For those that have raced them before they’ll be all to familiar, but those that haven’t, I’d like to introduce you to the B&S Blue Wazoom series. These motors are sealed, spec motors (just like the LO206) that produce 12-13 HP at around 6,600 – 7,000 rpms. They can be rebuilt multiple times (upper and lower) while being sent back to the owner with a certified rebuilders seal AND they last all season.
Class would run the exact same as the LO206 class, the only thing we’re changing is the motor which there is a set spec book for this class which I already have to produce for anyone that wants to take a look.If there’s any interest in this please come on out to SBR this weekend as I will have a FRESH rebuilt Wazoom for any and everyone to see and ask any questions about them. Pricing, history, education, builders and everything else I can help you out with if you’re interested.
I’ll be in a Blue Dodge with a topper.
Pics below are of the motor.
Thanks!
Just what we need. More classes 😕
I’ll stick to Lo206. Running Easykart, I figured out what a “Certified Builder” can do to these engines.
Buy 10, take them apart, match the pistons/rods, and boom you have a 1-2hp advantage with a “seal on it”.Also, this is a flathead motor taken to the max. No more 3-4 seasons before rebuilds.
If it were me, and I wanted to spend more money racing, I’d go 2-stroke. Or buy a World Formula.
@Chuck D wrote:
Just what we need. More classes 😕
I’ll stick to Lo206. Running Easykart, I figured out what a “Certified Builder” can do to these engines.
Buy 10, take them apart, match the pistons/rods, and boom you have a 1-2hp advantage with a “seal on it”.Also, this is a flathead motor taken to the max. No more 3-4 seasons before rebuilds.
If it were me, and I wanted to spend more money racing, I’d go 2-stroke. Or buy a World Formula.
With all due respect sir, I will respond of this with some positive feedback that will hopefully help out. This class would only be a part of the SBR series and not the CKT series. So unless you plan on running that series please refrain from putting down an idea.
As far as the reputable builder issue goes, if you had a bad experience with a “reputable builder”, please don’t take that opportunity to bash all other builders. Just FYI, those 206’s can also be stripped down, compared and determined that there is a 1 to 2 hp difference.
In response to your idea that a Blue Wazoom is a maxed out flat head, you are extremely incorrect on that. This is a mild build figuring these types of motors can be pushed to produce 30+ horsepower.
I can understand your concern about “adding more classes” but if you don’t plan on running the class or the series, please don’t bash on an idea. If a few people are diehard flathead fans, I’m sure they would love to possibly see this happen.
For those that are interested, please don’t let this push you away from the idea. I will still be at the track tomorrow and you can also message me any questions or concerns that you may have about these motors or this class in general.
By the way, on average this motor even with a rebuild is still cheaper than a brand-new 206 from a “reputable builder”
Just FYI, those 206’s can also be stripped down, compared and determined that there is a 1 to 2 hp difference.
False. 2hp on a LO206 means you’re breaking the rules. You’ll get caught. Checkout the rulebook sometime…..you can’t mess with the cams, pistons, weights of reciprocating parts, or essentially blueprint them to make more power.
They are blueprinted from the factory.
if you had a bad experience with a “reputable builder”
I take it you’ve never run at the National Level with a “spec” motor. The big checkbooks can go buy 15-18 engines, slam together the best parts, and sell the rest. This is what has typically happened in the past with non-LO206 engines.
In response to your idea that a Blue Wazoom is a maxed out flat head, you are extremely incorrect on that. This is a mild build figuring these types of motors can be pushed to produce 30+ horsepower.
30+hp out of a flathead means methanol or nitromethane. These engines used to be called “Blue KABOOM” for a reason.
You aren’t getting 30hp out of one of these and making it last more than 1-2 races. Period.I can understand your concern about “adding more classes” but if you don’t plan on running the class or the series, please don’t bash on an idea. If a few people are diehard flathead fans, I’m sure they would love to possibly see this happen.
More power to ya. Just saying, running with 2-3 people in a class for an extra 2 horsepower doesn’t mean much. Hell, I’d run a box stock 206 against this engine just to prove it’s pointless to spend extra $$ for tenths.
By the way, on average this motor even with a rebuild is still cheaper than a brand-new 206 from a “reputable builder”
Really? I’d like to see you publish actual costs. A LO206’s “reputable builder” is the factory. The shortblock is $560 bucks from a factory technician using tolerance methods and a build sheet designed to keep everything equal. Not to keep you a tenth out front.
From what I read this Blue “Kaboom” costs $1000 bucks. I bet CHTs are a treat too (500F+).
Why don’t we just introduce an Open 4 cycle, Nitromethane Class with 30hp? And $4000 engines?
Chuck buddy lol I don’t understand why you’re trying to bash on an idea so furiously.
There are tricks to a 206 builders don’t share that give a LEGAL advantage, and, if given the correct setup can substantially have a power increase against those that aren’t, per say, built correctly.
Your 30+ hp comment about the flatties is very true, but you said a Wazoom was a maxed out flathead which, from what if sounds like with your history, you should know that’s a false statement. There’s even a Super Blue that is used for drag and outperforms this regular Blue.
In regards to pricing here’s my 2 cents. UNLESS YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU’RE DOING, most will buy from a “reputable builder”. After checking and calling many many builders for package pricings, the cheapest I’ve found for a “Big Name” LO206 builder is $795 ready to go minus clutch. If you DO understand these motors well enough then yes, buying the motor with the extras to get it running and tuned correctly YOURSELF will be a bit cheaper but you run the risk of not having a top performing motor.
As for the Blues….yes, flatheads have died out due to the OHV design. We get that. And because of this, flatheads have been at their all time cheapest prices ever besides when they first came out.
All 3 of the wazooms I have were purchased under $300 A PIECE. I sent in my worst motor for a rebuild to see what the cost would be. The only parts that were salvageable on the motor was the rod, crank and cam. The motor had been sitting long enough that rust had started getting inside. The builder was able to clean everything up, buy all the parts, assemble it and perform break-in for only $475. I have all receipts for it if you’d like.
So with that said, you’re priced just a tad cheaper than a “Big Name” builder but unlike the 206’s, these motors can be rebuilt top to bottom up to +35 overbore and still be legal, which, even if you had to bore +10 over every rebuild, you’re still getting 3 seasons out of the motor itself.Ok, my biggest gripe about this is, from my understanding, you’re not even running the SBR series. I’m not intruding on the CKT or any other series AT ALL. This DOES NOT affect you, the classes or series you run, yet you still want to get involved with something you’re not even competing in. Lee at SBR is very happy with the idea of bringing a new class in if there’s enough interest and I’m trying to find a class that is easy to tech, good motors to maintain and would be such a fun history lesson for most that have never ran anything but OHV engines or 2-strokes. Not only that, but those that have never heard a pack of flatties running together is missing out on a fun time.
I appreciate the concern about introducing another class, I don’t appreciate the criticism or bashing of an idea to bring something new to the table….especially if you aren’t going to be involved at all, in any way, of either the series or the class itself.
I’m not asking for 30+ people to get involved like the LO206 has been able to produce and I’m highly appreciative that it has done so. I’m only asking 4 participants that may be interested in running these oldies but goodies and having a FUN TIME doing so.@Mac_49 wrote:
Chuck buddy lol I don’t understand why you’re trying to bash on an idea so furiously.
There are tricks to a 206 builders don’t share that give a LEGAL advantage, and, if given the correct setup can substantially have a power increase against those that aren’t, per say, built correctly.
Your 30+ hp comment about the flatties is very true, but you said a Wazoom was a maxed out flathead which, from what if sounds like with your history, you should know that’s a false statement. There’s even a Super Blue that is used for drag and outperforms this regular Blue.
In regards to pricing here’s my 2 cents. UNLESS YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU’RE DOING, most will buy from a “reputable builder”. After checking and calling many many builders for package pricings, the cheapest I’ve found for a “Big Name” LO206 builder is $795 ready to go minus clutch. If you DO understand these motors well enough then yes, buying the motor with the extras to get it running and tuned correctly YOURSELF will be a bit cheaper but you run the risk of not having a top performing motor.
As for the Blues….yes, flatheads have died out due to the OHV design. We get that. And because of this, flatheads have been at their all time cheapest prices ever besides when they first came out.
All 3 of the wazooms I have were purchased under $300 A PIECE. I sent in my worst motor for a rebuild to see what the cost would be. The only parts that were salvageable on the motor was the rod, crank and cam. The motor had been sitting long enough that rust had started getting inside. The builder was able to clean everything up, buy all the parts, assemble it and perform break-in for only $475. I have all receipts for it if you’d like.
So with that said, you’re priced just a tad cheaper than a “Big Name” builder but unlike the 206’s, these motors can be rebuilt top to bottom up to +35 overbore and still be legal, which, even if you had to bore +10 over every rebuild, you’re still getting 3 seasons out of the motor itself.Ok, my biggest gripe about this is, from my understanding, you’re not even running the SBR series. I’m not intruding on the CKT or any other series AT ALL. This DOES NOT affect you, the classes or series you run, yet you still want to get involved with something you’re not even competing in. Lee at SBR is very happy with the idea of bringing a new class in if there’s enough interest and I’m trying to find a class that is easy to tech, good motors to maintain and would be such a fun history lesson for most that have never ran anything but OHV engines or 2-strokes. Not only that, but those that have never heard a pack of flatties running together is missing out on a fun time.
I appreciate the concern about introducing another class, I don’t appreciate the criticism or bashing of an idea to bring something new to the table….especially if you aren’t going to be involved at all, in any way, of either the series or the class itself.
I’m not asking for 30+ people to get involved like the LO206 has been able to produce and I’m highly appreciative that it has done so. I’m only asking 4 participants that may be interested in running these oldies but goodies and having a FUN TIME doing so.Hey Mac, I personally think an open LO206 might be better than a whole different engine package. A lot of 206 drivers have 206s that need crankshaft work or something similar that would need to break the seal. How about instead of trying for a full new engine class we use what we already have and allow those that have 206 engines use them with minimal changes. Like for example a broken seal 206 class. Maybe increase the rev limiter or something. Make it really simple instead of buying a whole new engine for what you are suggesting. I like the idea of an easy to maintain upgrade to the 206 but I think staying with the 206 base would be the best option. What you will run into with this 206 community is price of entry. If they can use the same engine and just make a few minor changes (under $300) you will get more participation. Cost is EVERYTHING in this 206 community, think 1500 for a fully ready kart WITH tires. Anything higher than that and people start to question it. Now, selling this to the Rotax community you might be able to get them to pay more as a typical entry for one of those is like 4k. So really, its a matter of price and availability.
Hey Mac, I personally think an open LO206 might be better than a whole different engine package. A lot of 206 drivers have 206s that need crankshaft work or something similar that would need to break the seal. How about instead of trying for a full new engine class we use what we already have and allow those that have 206 engines use them with minimal changes. Like for example a broken seal 206 class. Maybe increase the rev limiter or something. Make it really simple instead of buying a whole new engine for what you are suggesting. I like the idea of an easy to maintain upgrade to the 206 but I think staying with the 206 base would be the best option. What you will run into with this 206 community is price of entry. If they can use the same engine and just make a few minor changes (under $300) you will get more participation. Cost is EVERYTHING in this 206 community, think 1500 for a fully ready kart WITH tires. Anything higher than that and people start to question it. Now, selling this to the Rotax community you might be able to get them to pay more as a typical entry for one of those is like 4k. So really, its a matter of price and availability.
I would be totally open to this idea. After a lot of thought on this my main concern was trying to find a package that’s comparably priced to the 206’s, is a maintainable engine, can be re-used over and over and takes little to tech.
Of all the previous racing plus just overall searching for an “alternative” to more power in a 4-cycle package, the Wazooms, whether it be the Flathead version or the OHV version, were the only possible choices that had a sound overall packaged appearance to them. And the prices are very comparable to the 206 engines.
I wouldn’t mind opening the 206’s up, it’s just that my first concern is the fact that, after removing the seals you’ve literally just re-created what the clones have done to destroy in the south. The clones are basically 1-2 parts away from being a fully moded engine ranging from $1,200 to $1,500 depending on what sticker you want on the shrouds. My worry is how to maintain honesty and push people away from trying to cheat, which is why I went for the sealed packaged motors like the Wazooms.I’m not trying to push one type of alternative and honestly am open to other ideas. I would like to keep an “alternative” to 4-cycles only for the purpose that the 2 strokes have all the options they could ever want as far as motors go…and that’s totally fine, but for those that want to keep the 4-cycle heritage, there’s no other options besides the 206.
So with that said, if there’s others that would be on board for an open 206 class, I’m very very certain Lee at SBR would love to include this class to his series this year. Just need to know if there’s any interest.
There is a “Rebuild Kit” for the 206’s that has its own tech for it if anyone is interested. It would keep everyone honest plus there is a certain way to tech it and would be easy to implement.In my opinion, trying to find a comparable 4-stroke to 206 is a bit of a waste with this community due to 206s are the best 4-stroke I have seen out here. They are cheap, last a long time, and all are competitive as long as you set the carb correctly. Rebuilding the 206 you can do a lot to improve horsepower. Granted, some of that stuff means breaking the seal BUT we can setup a rule set that works to keep things the same. OR we could just do an open 206 class. With an open 206 class based on the rules of CKT we could run that in the open tag class (Rodney or anyone else please correct me if I am wrong. Just going off what Rodney told me.). This would allow us to “fine-tune” the class specifics. Also if SBR is willing to add a class I am all for it.
I just feel trying to compete against the 206 for 4-stroke power is going to be an up hill battle that just isn’t going to win out. This motor has different options that could be done to make it faster. Just depends on what you want to do or allow for a specific class. I would love to see what this Briggs engine can do with the restrictions taken off (i.e Rev limiter, broken seals, different carb, maybe even different fuel). 😉
@jdavis-403 wrote:
In my opinion, trying to find a comparable 4-stroke to 206 is a bit of a waste with this community due to 206s are the best 4-stroke I have seen out here. They are cheap, last a long time, and all are competitive as long as you set the carb correctly. Rebuilding the 206 you can do a lot to improve horsepower. Granted, some of that stuff means breaking the seal BUT we can setup a rule set that works to keep things the same. OR we could just do an open 206 class. With an open 206 class based on the rules of CKT we could run that in the open tag class (Rodney or anyone else please correct me if I am wrong. Just going off what Rodney told me.). This would allow us to “fine-tune” the class specifics. Also if SBR is willing to add a class I am all for it.
I just feel trying to compete against the 206 for 4-stroke power is going to be an up hill battle that just isn’t going to win out. This motor has different options that could be done to make it faster. Just depends on what you want to do or allow for a specific class. I would love to see what this Briggs engine can do with the restrictions taken off (i.e Rev limiter, broken seals, different carb, maybe even different fuel). 😉
I’ll be the first one in line at any kind of “alternative” class. I love the idea. Just was looking for some positive input instead of being told how wrong the idea was lol. Doesn’t really help the community expand when there’s always a factor elsewhere shutting any idea down.
If you’re truly interested in doing this please get in contact with me and we can discuss what ideas there are to throw out there. I agree that it’s hard to beat what the original 206 has to offer but I’m not asking to do away with it at all. With a huge class for the 2017 season expected to be 35+, I don’t think this idea poses any kind of threat against it…especially since I’m not aiming to get involved with the CKT’s tour at all. It’s the ultimate choice for anyone wanting to get into karting….but I know there’s a few out there scratching to possibly try something new.
For everyone else, I’d love to hear input, ideas, anything. If you’re interested as well just let me know and I’ll try to share what is discussed and see if it’s a possibility for you.
So there might not have been a lot of interest in this and it’s totally understandable but I figured it’d still be fun to run around on the track since I have it.
Sorry for the low camera angle, didn’t know it was that low 😕 I didn’t drive hard figuring it was just a fun run so please don’t criticize for the “Sunday driver” pace lol
Anyways, enjoy and I’ll try to get it back out to the track this weekend if anyone wants to come see it live.
I’ll be the first one in line at any kind of “alternative” class. I love the idea. Just was looking for some positive input instead of being told how wrong the idea was lol. Doesn’t really help the community expand when there’s always a factor elsewhere shutting any idea down.
I’d be down for an “open” class. Problem is, what if I decide I want to outspend you and run a methanol 4 cycle making 30hp? Are you going to have fun getting lapped 3 times a race? Are you going to pony up the money to run a hardcore 4 cycle? This was the entire idea behind the 206. No “builder” engines. No way to outspend the other drivers.
especially since I’m not aiming to get involved with the CKT’s tour at all. It’s th ultimate choice for anyone wanting to get into karting….but I know there’s a few out there scratching to possibly try something new.
If you’re not racing, then why worry? Go out, turn laps, have fun. Easy recipe.
Lookup the new KA100 IAME 100cc engine. 22hp, $1700 bucks with electric start.
I’d rather run it than Rotax.Then step up to a shifter if you want more power. But at 22hp and that price, it’s a logical step above the 206, and is becoming the replacement setup for old Yamaha classes.
@Chuck D wrote:
I’d be down for an “open” class. Problem is, what if I decide I want to outspend you and run a methanol 4 cycle making 30hp? Are you going to have fun getting lapped 3 times a race? Are you going to pony up the money to run a hardcore 4 cycle? This was the entire idea behind the 206. No “builder” engines. No way to outspend the other drivers.
The 206 has it’s place and I won’t disagree at all on what it represents. Having some sort of “open” class at least gives people a “choice” to run something without being “told” what you can or cannot do was the idea.
The Wazoom I presented was a popular pick when getting into open classes because it was a reliable mild build that gave a great feel for the class. So yes, getting lapped happened allllll the time. That’s part of it. Heck, even in the 206 class people still get lapped.
I’m getting a little off course I guess…my end game was to suggest a different option of higher HP with the 4-cycles. Whether it be an “open” class or a “builders class” with rules/specs/tech items, etc. (Which we have that ready to go if it’s possible) I understand this was attempted with the World Formulas, but for a $1,300 price point…I can see why they didn’t catch on as much. It’s the same thing as when Briggs introduced the Animal, it didn’t catch on as much for the price and when the Clones came out, they completely destroyed the Animal’s impact. And now, a builders Clone costs more than an Animal does lol.especially since I’m not aiming to get involved with the CKT’s tour at all. It’s th ultimate choice for anyone wanting to get into karting….but I know there’s a few out there scratching to possibly try something new.
@Chuck D wrote:
If you’re not racing, then why worry? Go out, turn laps, have fun. Easy recipe.
I must’ve presented that wrong…I AM racing in the CKT…but what I’m hoping to do here is involved in an entirely different series (SBR). That’s what I meant by saying not getting involved with the CKT tour.
@Chuck D wrote:
Lookup the new KA100 IAME 100cc engine. 22hp, $1700 bucks with electric start.
I’d rather run it than Rotax.That’s a 2-poker, again trying to keep some sort of 4-stroke involvement here. Also, the OHV of the Wazoom puts out over 20hp (talking to Lee Miller personally) and costs $700 less than that KA100.
I understand your concern and criticism for the idea of something different. What I still don’t understand is the level of involvement on a topic about a Series you’re not even entered in, which means a class you won’t be competing in with a motor package you’ll never dive into. In essence, you’re arguing just to argue it sounds like. No offense sir, but I’m trying to figure out your angle of negativity in a subject you aren’t involved with.
If you want to run the SBR series then yes absolutely I’d be happy to personally get in touch and see if there’s some middle ground we could meet at. It sounds like you passion for this idea could be there, but with no “clear” direction right now, all I’m getting is static on your end. If you are open to the idea of something different then join the SBR series and help me out here on what you would like to see happen. Lee is all for it so I have his support to make this happen.
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