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I felt like we hijacked the other topic the guy started “emulsion tube modifications” with karting in Colorado and its popularity or in some eyes the lack of it. I guess what i don’t under stand is why there are so many different Series for such a small knit group through out the state. From what i can tell there is the SBR series down in the springs, CSC, and CO Karting Tour. Why not simplify the structure to make 1 Colorado Series with all the different classes? Doug said in his post drivers have to pick which races to race. The problem is everything seems to be spread so thin. Low turn out one week at SBR Karting Challenge because 1 week earlier or the same week there might be a race at IMI CO karting tour etc.
Stacey was mentioning about the financial aspect of a track holding races and how when its low turnout its a drain on the track. It just seems that if there was 1 official (hopefully sponsored) series in Colorado where all drivers registered and competed, that when there was a certain week they didn’t race, that the field would be big enough that there would never be low turnout. No one would not be racing Centennial in the CSC race because they are racing next week in the CO karting tour race.
August 19th is the CSC race at Grand junction but the next weekend is the CO Karting tour at Action Karting…. people are going to be picking and choosing that month, meaning one of the venues might have a lower turn out. I don’t know maybe i am looking at it from a different angle. But Doug is right IMI last time was great, there was a lot of people, the weekend felt great, but some months or weeks that could be at the expense of a different series or track.
My thoughts and opinion. 1 series, 1 website with all the info for all the classes/news/standings. 1 registration form and annual Series membership fee. And most importantly 1 schedule. Its easier for sponsors/advertisers to reach more people. Easier for racers and maybe even fans to get all CO Series Karting in one location. It’s almost like if you had to go to a different website for all the different NFL divisions to get scores, stats, schedules instead of just going to nfl.com for it all.
Would be interested in anyone’s thoughts, or maybe im just crazy haha :rotate:
I may not have made it clear enough. Roughly 50% of the racers have time and money for 10 races in a season. About 40% have less time and resources and about 10% have more of both. Effectively we have a 5 month season. If you start having more than 10 races (2/month), racers will have to choose as they just can’t do them all.
15 years ago the CSC was big. A low turnout was 120 and a high was 150. The series was drawing racers from Utah, New Mexico and beyond. The series was part of the Ekartingnews driver rankings, it was that good. But the total number of races in the state was very limited. That is what made it work.
A race with 120+ racers is a very profitable weekend for the track as it should be. But then everybody wants in on the action. Next thing you know, we have 30 events scheduled in the state and very quickly, no one is getting anyone. One year we had over 50 events scheduled and it was a disaster. Then the finger pointing starts. This series or that series, this track or that track are a bunch of_______(fill in whatever you want, heard them all). Everybody is pissed, some quit. Everybody loses.
Bottomline is this. You could have 10 tracks and 10 series but with our limited pool of racers, there is only enough money and time to support about 10 races/year in this state. With our population base we should easily have 200 racers compared to 15-20 years ago. But the only way we will get there is to have 10 races or less in the state each year.
Ya that would be awesome to see 150 racers out there! My only observation is like you said, 50% have time and resoarces, but for what? Which series are they participating in? There could be 150 current racers now and if they are all competing in the CSC then whats left for SBR or CO kart tour and vice versa? It just feels spread thin. When i was down at sbr end of May, the owner Lee was hosting an event the next weekend but he said it will be low turn out if any come at all because CO kart was at IMI that weekend. Its like the different series are stepping on eachother and trying to share/split the limited amount of racers available at the moment.
Just feels like if there was 1 series and 1 schedule the turn out at each race would be what you were mentioning it used to be.
That 40% you mentioned is a lot of racers, nearly half, that dont have the time or resoarces for a full season, so they are probably picking 1 series over the other. There just doesnt seem to be enough racers to have enough local series to be picking and choosing from. Plus its just over complicated, hard to follow, hard to keep track of. I had to have 3 different pages open last night online to look at 3 differeng series sharing 30 go 40 racers, was just annoying.
I agree with your bottom line for sure! Karting seemed to have been bad ass here 15 years ago
It would be best if all series can somehow work out their schedules so there is no overlap. Hard to make that happen though. Also, need to have the same engine rules and weights so it is not a lot of trouble to go from one series to another. It also will take racers to have racers show up. On the Western Slope, there are only a handful of racers in any class. I’m talking less than 5 in each. Stacey, might think about doing some promotions with displays set up at major area car shows or something. Anything to get some exposure. Also, I will say it again, promote LO206 as a low cost entry stepping stone.
I agree to the 1 series recommendation. CKT appears to have every class plus Jr 1 and Jr 2 LO206 classes. Apparently they have a Junior/Senior/Master Tag that runs with open tag iirc. That based on my understand has all the classes we run in CO. I don’t understand why the CSC racers only race the CSC when there is another series I run in that has all the same classes. Just seems like those that race in CSC don’t race in CKT but those that race in CKT also race in CSC. Maybe those that are skipping those races should come out and support CKT. CKT has the numbers and is growing. They just split the LO206 light and heavy classes as it was getting too big to run all on the same track. Have you done that with Rotax lately. 😉 Just saying the participation and members are out there. Let’s all focus on a Club that supports all tracks in colorado. CKT appears to be that one at the moment as they visit all but Grand Junction. Which I would recommend they add IMHO.
Question for those that don’t race CKT but race CSC and National races. Why don’t you race CKT? Would really like to understand the reason as I run both and have a blast in both. Granted, most of the top races in 206 come to both so its a lot of fun. 🙂
To Ken, Doug and anyone else who may be interested in this thread. I would like to clarify the intent of SBR’s SCKC (Southern Colorado Karting Challenge) We are trying to bring competitive Karting back to the people in this area !! ( South of Castle Rock ) As most old timers know George ruined Karting in the Springs area at the end of CRE. Now SBR’s goal, is to target and bring new people into the sport. Not dilute the attendance of the real Series of the CKT or the CSC. And to the existing Karting community The SCKC should be seen as a fun race day with a free BBQ at the end of the day. I’m not asking anyone ( North of Castle Rock ) to come and participate unless you want to!! The SCKC is an event series basically for new to karting people to experience a race day atmosphere with out the race day stress and pressures of a CKT or CSC event. And all it has done is cost me revenue to try and increase your numbers!! I see the sport of Kart racing has a revolving door. If you want to increase your numbers you have to bring more people in than are going out. So I know I’m kind of sheltered out here in the sticks. But is there any other facility in the state making an effort or sacrifice to bring people in?? My point The SCKC is not even in the same league as the CKT or CSC , we are not in competition for any one’s racing budget. And if you’d like to just come down for a fun day of racing you are all welcome. Regardless of your political views LOL
Lee Seigel
SBR Motorsports ParkI find it odd how everyone says they lose money having a Club race like CKT/CSC. And turn around and say Corporate events and rentals gain money. Isn’t a club race a corporate event? This is excluding races sponsored by the track in question. I am specifically asking about events like CKT and CSC. Why are they costing the track money when rentals put wear and tear on their rental equipment? Shouldn’t CKT and CSC make MORE money than rentals and on par with Corporate events? I would really like to see the math in this regards. I may have some recommendations in how to make this profitable. I mean I pay $85 to race 30 laps in one day. Test and tunes varies from $40-$50. Rentals IIRC run around $30 or so for 10 or so laps. How many of those do you get in a day? What does Corporate events run? The math you want to do is compare a CSC/CKT race day profits to rental and corporate events. If there is a discrepancy from one to another raise the price on the lower option to line up. It just seems to me that tracks are making excuses to not run events when really they dictate the price. If people are not showing up maybe re-evaluate. I know we have a lot of smart people here but what I have been hearing from Track owners is making me think we need to re-evaluate our priorities. I would really like to see the real numbers to understand exactly what the problem is.
@jdavis-403 wrote:
I find it odd how everyone says they lose money having a Club race like CKT/CSC. And turn around and say Corporate events and rentals gain money. Isn’t a club race a corporate event? This is excluding races sponsored by the track in question. I am specifically asking about events like CKT and CSC. Why are they costing the track money when rentals put wear and tear on their rental equipment? Shouldn’t CKT and CSC make MORE money than rentals and on par with Corporate events? I would really like to see the math in this regards. I may have some recommendations in how to make this profitable. I mean I pay $85 to race 30 laps in one day. Test and tunes varies from $40-$50. Rentals IIRC run around $30 or so for 10 or so laps. How many of those do you get in a day? What does Corporate events run? The math you want to do is compare a CSC/CKT race day profits to rental and corporate events. If there is a discrepancy from one to another raise the price on the lower option to line up. It just seems to me that tracks are making excuses to not run events when really they dictate the price. If people are not showing up maybe re-evaluate. I know we have a lot of smart people here but what I have been hearing from Track owners is making me think we need to re-evaluate our priorities. I would really like to see the real numbers to understand exactly what the problem is.
The cost of insurance for all participants, officials, and track staff is a large chunk of the cost to running a race day for most series. In addition, staffing costs, materials cost (just for example think how much it costs to print ~200 schedules for a day!), etc, it adds up. At the end of the day, at least locally/regionally, most karting series aren’t out to make a killing financially. Tracks in Colorado are great at working with racing series to put on good race days, but no one is walking away with millions.
@EGunderson wrote:
@jdavis-403 wrote:
I find it odd how everyone says they lose money having a Club race like CKT/CSC. And turn around and say Corporate events and rentals gain money. Isn’t a club race a corporate event? This is excluding races sponsored by the track in question. I am specifically asking about events like CKT and CSC. Why are they costing the track money when rentals put wear and tear on their rental equipment? Shouldn’t CKT and CSC make MORE money than rentals and on par with Corporate events? I would really like to see the math in this regards. I may have some recommendations in how to make this profitable. I mean I pay $85 to race 30 laps in one day. Test and tunes varies from $40-$50. Rentals IIRC run around $30 or so for 10 or so laps. How many of those do you get in a day? What does Corporate events run? The math you want to do is compare a CSC/CKT race day profits to rental and corporate events. If there is a discrepancy from one to another raise the price on the lower option to line up. It just seems to me that tracks are making excuses to not run events when really they dictate the price. If people are not showing up maybe re-evaluate. I know we have a lot of smart people here but what I have been hearing from Track owners is making me think we need to re-evaluate our priorities. I would really like to see the real numbers to understand exactly what the problem is.
The cost of insurance for all participants, officials, and track staff is a large chunk of the cost to running a race day for most series. In addition, staffing costs, materials cost (just for example think how much it costs to print ~200 schedules for a day!), etc, it adds up. At the end of the day, at least locally/regionally, most karting series aren’t out to make a killing financially. Tracks in Colorado are great at working with racing series to put on good race days, but no one is walking away with millions.
Insurance, officials, and track staff. Those items in my opinion should be covered by the track already with their staff and their insurance. You are using the tracks resources when you are at that track you should be able to use ALL the resource including staff and insurance. One would think that the insurance is covered due to the track has you sign the same form when you do a test and tune so I know they pay for it. If the Club is paying for insurance on top of the other then there is some serious stealing of money from the insurance companies as insurance should already be covered by the track insurance.
In regards to printing 200 schedules and other materials. That isn’t covered under the track that is covered by the club. The club has membership dues that you pay at the start of the year. That should cover all those expenses. The race day fee ($85) should cover the cost of that track not obtaining the money from rentals. I am still looking for the hard math though. Saying these things I can cover in the fees we already provide. Just trying to understand how the track is losing money on this when they should at least break even (from a normal rental day) or come a little ahead.
It just seems to me that insurance companies are double charging the club and the track for the same coverage. The track staff should attend/run these events as it really is essentially a corporate event (which track staff should run those events). Also, think about it this way. Corporations having an event at the track doesn’t have to buy insurance. They just sign the form at the track that already has insurance. See what I am saying there? And all extra material and other Club staff help running the event should be paid via the club membership and part of the race fee. This should leave enough for the track to cover everything else. Still feel the money we spend should cover everything. I would love to see the hard math to show exactly where the track is losing money.
@jdavis-403 wrote:
@EGunderson wrote:
@jdavis-403 wrote:
I find it odd how everyone says they lose money having a Club race like CKT/CSC. And turn around and say Corporate events and rentals gain money. Isn’t a club race a corporate event? This is excluding races sponsored by the track in question. I am specifically asking about events like CKT and CSC. Why are they costing the track money when rentals put wear and tear on their rental equipment? Shouldn’t CKT and CSC make MORE money than rentals and on par with Corporate events? I would really like to see the math in this regards. I may have some recommendations in how to make this profitable. I mean I pay $85 to race 30 laps in one day. Test and tunes varies from $40-$50. Rentals IIRC run around $30 or so for 10 or so laps. How many of those do you get in a day? What does Corporate events run? The math you want to do is compare a CSC/CKT race day profits to rental and corporate events. If there is a discrepancy from one to another raise the price on the lower option to line up. It just seems to me that tracks are making excuses to not run events when really they dictate the price. If people are not showing up maybe re-evaluate. I know we have a lot of smart people here but what I have been hearing from Track owners is making me think we need to re-evaluate our priorities. I would really like to see the real numbers to understand exactly what the problem is.
The cost of insurance for all participants, officials, and track staff is a large chunk of the cost to running a race day for most series. In addition, staffing costs, materials cost (just for example think how much it costs to print ~200 schedules for a day!), etc, it adds up. At the end of the day, at least locally/regionally, most karting series aren’t out to make a killing financially. Tracks in Colorado are great at working with racing series to put on good race days, but no one is walking away with millions.
Insurance, officials, and track staff. Those items in my opinion should be covered by the track already with their staff and their insurance. You are using the tracks resources when you are at that track you should be able to use ALL the resource including staff and insurance. One would think that the insurance is covered due to the track has you sign the same form when you do a test and tune so I know they pay for it. If the Club is paying for insurance on top of the other then there is some serious stealing of money from the insurance companies as insurance should already be covered by the track insurance.
In regards to printing 200 schedules and other materials. That isn’t covered under the track that is covered by the club. The club has membership dues that you pay at the start of the year. That should cover all those expenses. The race day fee ($85) should cover the cost of that track not obtaining the money from rentals. I am still looking for the hard math though. Saying these things I can cover in the fees we already provide. Just trying to understand how the track is losing money on this when they should at least break even (from a normal rental day) or come a little ahead.
It just seems to me that insurance companies are double charging the club and the track for the same coverage. The track staff should attend/run these events as it really is essentially a corporate event (which track staff should run those events). Also, think about it this way. Corporations having an event at the track doesn’t have to buy insurance. They just sign the form at the track that already has insurance. See what I am saying there? And all extra material and other Club staff help running the event should be paid via the club membership and part of the race fee. This should leave enough for the track to cover everything else. Still feel the money we spend should cover everything. I would love to see the hard math to show exactly where the track is losing money.
I just have to agree with Davis on not understanding how a race day wouldn’t be a huge day for any track or owner. At least from my opinion that there should be a more structured and easier system in the state. Just running basic numbers I can not, even playing devils advocate come to a scenario where a Sunday of rentals would be more profitable or exciting for a track than a Series coming into town. Unless of coarse as i mentioned before it seems to be, that a series rolls into town and has low turn out because most people already raced last weekend at a different track.
An 8 race series at 4 tracks, 2 races per track per season.
$100 annual membership fee. The 4 tracks split the membership fees.
$40 Saturday practice fee and $85 Sunday race fee (negotiable, just using as example)
As Doug mentioned in the glory days it was normal to have 150 racers turn out for a race. So we will start with that number for 2018
150 sign up for the league coming to $15,000 split 4 ways letting each track receive $3750 for the season. This can be used for whatever they need to help promote the event they will hold for the 2 races. That’s $1875 they will receive for reserving the track for a race Sunday. Keep in mind like at IMI. They have practice Saturday for all the racers but still allowed people (like me) with their own kart to practice who were not racing, so they still had that revenue.
Say out of 150 members 100 show up for the series race at Centennial , IMI or whatever you choose for the example. For Saturday 100 pay the $40 for practice/tune. That tracks in $4000 for the day JUST from the track fee. Not including purchasing parts, fuel etc. whatever the track offers. Sunday the 100 come back for the Race day paying the $85 bringing the total in at $8500 for the day PLUS whatever else is purchased at the track.
On a 100 racer turn out weekend a track is bringing in $12,500 just for the practice and race day fee. On top of the $1875 from the annual memberships totaling at $14,375 plus track purchases and possibly/Hopefully track advertisement, sponsorship. I just can’t come to grip with being told it’s not worth it financially for a track to hold a race. They do it successfully all over the country.
This is all hypothetical but absolutely realistic giving a simpler, easier to follow Series. I just started following karting in CO and was confused just the first month seeing on 2 different sites 2 different night races at Centennial. I couldn’t tell if it was 1 site for the actual race and 1 promoting it or if it was 2 different night races for 2 different series. Then a message went out saying 1 of the night races was moved to day and i saw someone on this site confused about which was which as well and asking for clarity.
When its structured better and turn out is more noticeable things like promoting the race to the general public and racers dieing for the next months race begin to happen. Other wise it just seems it will be the same old same old, tracks splitting turn out from multiple series. 1 track feeling the backlash with low turn out do to the racers that chose to race in a different race 2 weeks earlier spending their budget there.
Just something to consider. But i do think a reliable well planned out series could be HUGE for local tracks. Financially and by bringing the sport closer to people like the party renter guy.
Seems like it’s in the best interest of the track to keep the cost down. Less profit per racer, but it is made up and then some by having more racers. It’s a win win. If I ran a track or kart shop, I would be promoting the heck out of LO206 to get more people on track. Uniform engine rules all throughout North America. Low cost to purchase. Low cost to run. Will result in more people racing IMO.
At the CKT race at Podium earlier this month
LO 206 Light 24 racers started the main event.
LO 206 Heavy 12 racers started the heat race.LO 206 racing is alive and well in Colorado.
@Doug Welch wrote:
At the CKT race at Podium earlier this month
LO 206 Light 24 racers started the main event.
LO 206 Heavy 12 racers started the heat race.LO 206 racing is alive and well in Colorado.
Nice!!
Wish we could get 5-6 at GJMS for club races. Last time I raced, we had 2. Got a new one coming though. And I hope I can get a new driver in my kart that is for sale too.
Looks like my kart is going to be on your side of the mountain. Darn, would love to see it race at GJMS. How can GJMS get more karts? Doesn’t one of the rental tracks have LO206 to rent if you are fast enough on the regular rentals? Seems like a good way to get people interested. Also the new spec karts that are around $3800 complete seem like a good idea.
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