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Sorry Jason,
We very rarely do that when a member uses his real name. And…. anytime there is an oppurtunity to hammer on Jansen (feel free to join in on that) we take it.
Pretty simple. If you have some driving background, you may adapt to the shifter pretty well. I have seen several ex moto x-er’s do very well hoping into a shifter kart. Do I think they would be better drivers starting in a Tag? Yes. Does it matter? No. They are having fun either way and I’m just glad to see more racers coming into a very cool sport.
Just because you would be a better racer in the end, may not mean jack to you. I can tell you Roman loves running a shifter, but it requires more finesse to drive a Tag. He likes that. We used to run Can Am cars. (read as shifter) pretty good horsepower, sometimes just hanging onto it. Wild and wicked. Then raced showroom stock. (read as Tag) If I made a mistake I may be the same 6 car lengths behind the guy in front of me for the next 30 minutes. Not quite as wild but more competitive in my opinion. We would sometimes take the checkered with a 6 -7 car train. Never came close to seeing that in the Can Am racing. Sure it wasn’t nearly as much fun to watch either.
The most highly regarded kart racing class in the past has been the european direct drive class. The fastest? No. But where every top driver in the world wanted to make a name for his or herself. It required more finesse and skill to coaxe these around a circuit. (I suppose you could argue it, but I’ll stick with that).
What I hate to see is someone getting into this and not having a good time and getting out.
When Roman finally got his grades to a point where we could go racing (took him 3 years, just about killed me!) We started to shop around. It was suggested that him being a good size kid, just to put him in a 125 shifter. Hell he would not have even been able to race the kart for a few years at his age, but by God, I would have owned a pretty old kart with a Kawasaki 125cc on her. I have been racing long enough to know that someone was just trying to sell me whatever was sitting there and I was thinking a Tag, 4-stroke (not whats available today in 4-stroke mind you) or any class that required learning to drive properly. Now our aspirations where not that different then than they are now. We know we are not going to be the next F-1 driver and could quite possibly not go far after karting. (we love it and think it’s better tha F-1 anyway, but that’s another thread) But I wanted be as competitive as we could racing around here and there are some damn good racers around here.
Be prepared for a little more maintenance for a shifter. (see my comments on another recent thread) Also, You can go run a Tag pretty easily by yourself. Spin it and hit hit the button and go again. And you will spin it. A shifter is a little more difficult. Spec Moto may be better than trying an Icc package for the 1st time racer, but, hey, I’ve helped some new guy’s who are running these with very good results.
If you have good resources and money is not an issue, get what you think will be the most fun. Don’t worry about being a little better in a year or two or being able to carry a little more corner speed. Get the thing and have fun. If you’re feeling your way around the sport and want to have some fun, get a Tag.
Sorry to highjack you like that :hijack
Boiled down to it’s purest form: take two totally equal drivers in every way. 1 starts out in a shifter, the other starts out in a Tag. They both run for one year getting equal track time. Second year, The driver who started in the Tag (remember all things being equall with the drivers) gets a shifter and at first is not as comfortable as the driver with a year under his belt in the shifter already. They both run eqaul time again. Then the 3rd year/ Both have shifter experience, one has low horsepower / momentum driving experience. I’ll put my money on the driver with the Tag / momentum driving experence every time, even though he has a year less in the shifter. He will be a more controlled driver who will be very difficult for the driver who has more shifter time to beat. He will be more calm, his hands much more quiet, I could go on and on…..
Bottom line, and this is: what my Dad allways told me (Mr Hard Head) “do what you want to do, because that’s what you’re going to do anyway. Right?
It’s just hard to stop someone who is new and compulsive. and point them in the right direction. But as they say in the used car business. “There is an a$$ for every seat”
Sorry to jerk youre thread man!
Rick
Road Runner Posted: Wed 08 1, 2007 5:36 pm Post subject:
Oh and by the way if anybody couldnt tell by that last post, i dont know how to “Quote” correctley.Tony,
Glad you got the hummingbird thing. We’ve been trying to slow Jansens hands down a little this year, it’s proven to be a major challenge to say the least but he is getting better. Young Butterfly!
To quote Tony. Reply to the post as you would. Click on “Quote” in the box above the window. Scroll down and copy (highlight) the segment you want to include in your quote. Right click, copy. Then go to your response, right click, paste. Then click on quote again. You can edit dialog out by highlighting, then space bar. Your first quote should read
Hi Tony
on the last quote in brackets should be Qoute inside the brackets ([ ]) with a forward slash (/) before the word Quote. The forward slash should on the end quote, not the first or it won’t work.
Sure I’ll get flamed here. This is a body man / painter explaining this. There are computer guys out there cringing at my explanation, I’m sure. But it has worked for me. If any of you computer guys out there need help with writing any tech manuals or anything, let me know!
Go ahead work me over!!! I can handle it! (Deason) I know you must be chomping at the bit. Give me your best shot. Lol
I do a lot better with things that you put gas in!!!
Rick
Mike Jansen Posted: Wed 08 1, 2007 4:54 pm Post subject:
Kirk_Deason wrote:
I still suck and lack consistency. Oh, and practice…A LOT.Kirk, you lack consistency that’s all.
Those who live in glass houses?
I haven’t noticed Kirks arms look like himming bird wings when he’s driving, like someone else we all know. Uh Uhm….Not that I’m talking about you Mikey. You know……. :idn:
Mike Jansen Posted: Wed 08 1, 2007 4:08 pm Post subject:
Great, more classes instead of less….DD2 lite, heavy
4 stroke
Spec Honda lite, heavysounds like a lot of future boat anchors out there in the form of ICC, Rotax, Motori, Leapurd, Sonic, etc…
I agree with earlier posts. 4 stroke is the future weather we like it or not. The AMA Motocross race at Thunder Valley proves that. And I don’t want to hear about a seal… Harp, Elephant, Harbor or Rotax
Bitter party of one!
You sure didn’t seem to mind the Combined additional classes this year, Rotax / Tag Masters! Slicing through those hard tire clad machines with the greatest of ease. Cutting through 1/2 the field in the first lap was like cutting through warm butter.
Come to think of it, I was home at 6:30 the last few races! Cool!
Doesn’t scooter need a french nail job or something? :idn:
Doug Welch Posted:
Rick
The DD2 were on Mojos, the 4 cycles on MG yellows.
I did look at lap times. The DD2 have only run once on a real tire. The last time out at The Track, the quick ones were in the low 54 second range. The 4 cycles at the CSC the week before were in the low 55 second range. I think we can run in the
The DD2 runs currently runs at 385#. As the package grows, next year they are going to a light and heavy. The 385# number sucks for most of the quick kids and the older race alike. Its a compromise weight. I hope the weights next year are something like 375 and 410.
A.J. Did not race but was in the 53’s in test and tune. I think with the best drivers and well tuned machines, it would be a hell of a race!
I hope they have a enough for a light and heavy in DD2. It would open up others to participate in the class and might keep the Rmax fire burning bright here even if the Grands are in another state. Do you think this will be at the Rmax level? But then, I also thought there would be interest in the Spec Moto class split too and it didn’t to generate enough interest.
It would be interesting to see Kyle / Greg in the DD2 and A.J. In the 4 Stroke with new rubber that is the same. Your right, the DD2’s have been on the Mojo but I don’t think that A.J. has run new rubber in a race with the 4-Stroke yet. Seems like A.J. has just been playing with them so far. Don’t want to speak for him though.
And both are great classes! No doubt. The 4 stroke is very fast and simple and suits the bigger than 185 -190 lbs crowd pretty well.
Rick
Doug Welch Posted:
For a little less money, a guy can get a DD2 package and go faster still. Both the 4 cycle Tag and the DD2 use a front brake chassis so that cost is the same. The DD2 engine is roughly $500 less than the retail on the 4 cycles. At a track like IMI, the DD2 will be just about as quick as a stock Moto shifter.
Doug,
Maybe I’m missing something here but looking at Mylaps, it looks like the fastest Vampire has gone faster still than the fastest DD2 (by a decent margin) at every race this year they ran together? Correct me if I’m wrong.A claimed 300 hour rebuild seems pretty hard to beat. (we’ll see) Not sure if the DD2 is a 50 hour engine with all the gears and such. I really don’t know much about the DD2. Another thing to think about is driver size, How heavy can you be as a driver to be competitive in the current DD2 class? A couple of the newer drivers on this thread and others are a little larger than the standard driver. I know we looked at it for Roman, there was no way we could pull the extra weight and run with the pack. I think that should be mentioned to a new racer looking to get started.
tealemm Posted:
I really hate it when people bash shifters or say they are a lot of maintenance, …….I Believe if you keep up the maintenance and take care of your kart You will not have major issues, Get a Good Mechanic that can help you Like Barry Lewis and you will not face the issues that some have……Don’t think anyone is bashing shifters or saying they are a lot of maintenance. Keeping up on the maintenance does require more effort on a shifter though. Changing gear oil, maintaining clutch frictions, topping the motor every race, maybe two, knocking the timing around, preventative bottom end mid season, playing with reeds etc… Some of these things are not required in a Tag. (you can blow anything up if you want) Many of the Tags run all year on a piston, reeds and so on. Barry is an awesome engine man, maybe the best around these parts. He builds incredible horsepower but these things are thoroghbreds, they aren’t super safe motors designed to last a couple of seasons. (some Tags will)That kind of motor gives me a “you now what” but some of these new guys are tying into these potent units. I see a lot of new guys going and buying up used Icc packages and they struggle a little at first, surely you would agree that these new guys should at least look at Tag first. The best shifter pilots came through direct drive, 4 stroke or a Tag type momentum carrying class. At least, in mine and many others opinion.
You’re dead on with keeping your stuff clean, that’s when you find potential issues with your machine and get intimate with it. A few of the karts out there runnng are so dirty, it’s hard to believe they can stay together for a whole race, sometimes they don’t. You don’t have to have the nicest equipment but taking care of it will get the most out of it, for sure.
apsdsmracer Posted:
Rick – Thanks so much for your help at the last race. I wouldn’t have been out there without you and your team’s help!! I owe you guys one!!Dave,
You certainly had a problem there! We’ve been in that boat before, Roman used to pick the worst time to bend stuff up! I’m just glad you were able to get out there and compete with that big of job and short time before the call. Good job in the race by the way.
Rick
Yea Joe,
It’s frustrating to be as fast or faster than someone your running with, then have them put 2-3 kart lengths on you pulling out of a corner. It has taught Roman to carry good corner speed though. Lol
Come Ride Romans kart, You’ll see!
Rick
I would call and talk to Brad. This class is going to be fun next year. Sounds like the field is going to build up with some really good people.
Joe, You are running a little over weight just as we are. We can feel our 15 – 20 lbs in the Rotax, it is pretty obvious with the limited torque available. The 4-stroke on the other hand has gob’s of bottom and seems to be less affected by the weight. You are more than welcome to drive Romans. We have been cycling butt’s in that thing and everyone has had the same response. Wow! You’ve seen A.J. out there reeling in and passing the very fast Tag Seniors and DD2’s and running comparable times to the shifters.
As far as Joe S’s comment. Racing cost money. That is something you have to be aware of coming in. Aside from the typical racing cost: entry fee’s, test tune, crash damage, tires, fuel, transport, lodging, consumables or whatever level you accept or how deep you want to go. There are definatley cost involved. You need to research before diving in and pick your battles and race what you can handle. Although, the only cost incured on the 4-stroke this year that would not be part of the above (and those are are cost’s for any kart racing you decide to do) is add oil and about $40 dollars worth of jets. We are still learning to tune the pumper carb and have made good progress. You do not need to chase that knifes edge tuning like you do a 2 stroke. Set it and run it, no changes needed during the day.
So far so good. Time will tell if the package stays together and what the costs of running long term. We are racking up hours and we’ll see. I think Brad is on the leading edge of this thing. Look at it this way. Lets take 10-12 of the best drivers and put them on these 4 strokes and cut them loose. Same motor, same performance properties, great dependable power. And I think the racing will damn good. None of the “your motor is better at this track” or “that turn made it a Leopard track” just go duke it out. I’m really excited to see the Tag Worlds and a good field of these babies screaming into the brake zones. It sounds awesome, and will remind me of Monaco.
I have not seen a class that is as attractive for the bigger drivers than this class. It gives the drivers who can’t make weight a chance to be competitive in a class rather than just know they’ll finish somewhere in the pack and hope to find someone to race with. Screw that, get a stroker and go for the throat.
I know this is kind of dreamy but: I can see enough entry’s to have a light and heavy. Imagine a 4 stroke Masters group coming down to take the gren flag with say: Warrington, Hersh, the Latins, Some of the Southern boys, Watkins, Keesling, Jansen, Reed, Hawley, Desanti, Kravanek, Dennin, Ebersole, Jacobellis, Cooks, Vasquez, Gordon, Walls, Gutierrez (and the many I missed) This would be some of the best racing you could ask for. Same motor, same chance. It would look like some of the Mini Max races we’ve seen, running in tains waiting for an error so you can overtake. It’s only a dream now, but it could happen in the next season or two.
Am I high on the 4-stroke? You bet. It looks good, runs hard, pretty much hands off maintanence. Seems to make a chassis work great. A.J. even made the comment “I’ve never felt a chassis work like this” Just changing a Tag motor to a stroker on the same chassis. For those who know A.J. or any thing about his racing history. That is quite a statement.
Anyway, come ride Romans or Brads and see what you think.
Of course, so much depends on a lot of variables. But if you are looking at 4-stroke. It is going to be a much bigger class next year. I think it would have been a big class this year but the Rotax Grands being in our back yard have altered some of our local series and turn outs. It would be more initial expense but there will be engine packages available a the end of the season for the price of a new Tag package and it will run for another 3-5 years without much more than preventative and oil changes. A lot of racers have talked to us about going to a 4-stroke next year, they see comparable times to some of the shifters and want to come have fun next year.
If 4-stroke is a little steep. You have a lot of choices as has been mentioned before. Tag offers a lot. Go to a race. Go to the next race. Go to the Rotax Grands. Go to the Tag Worlds at Imi in early October. This is a once in a lifetime chance to get up close an personal with some of the best examples of the kind of racing / karts you looking at. There is no one clear cut “better engine” with all the different venues you have to run. Leopard and Rotax are the most common motors. The Biland has had favorable performance this year and is a 4-stroke / long life engine that sounds great. We put 72 hrs on our Motori last year and Roman Clinched with one race left. Thats 72 hours without even re ringing! That’s 2-3 years for the average racer. Actually, we’ve run all the above mentioned come to think of it.
There are some great tracks here and they are quite different. A great man once said “it is more about chassis and driver than engine” Then went out and bought a different motor to suit the different circuits. Just pick the best all around in your eyes. Even if you’re just thinking about finding a kart to go and play around on, plan on what class you would end up in on the off chance that you decided to race. You will get faster if you get laps and more than likely you will engage in small battles, even out testing, you’ll find someone close in performance and the thrill of competition will get you involved in organized racing. So plan ahead.
Check out the different chassis, see how they perform on the track. Visit with representatives of these chassis. See who you enjoy talking to, even if your not going to be a team driver or whatever. Sometimes purchasing a brand will get you a lot of support after the sale, sometimes less support. You need to deal with people who you like and are comfortable to be around. Some shop / teams kinda chose their customers too for the right fit. See how they support the customer and dive in.
You’re looking at a good time of the year for sure. Some racers are upgrading equipment for Championship runs and you can get clean used machines relatively cheap. There have been some racers who have changed colors a little before silly season was supposed to start, and are dumping race-able equipment. Cheap.
Most of all, talk to others. Find out if they will help you with tuning. It is soooo much easier to drive a well set up machine. Even if you’re new and running tires until you can see thru them. A well set up machine is fun and will teach you to drive smooth and develop the proper technique and good habits.
We are not racing this weekend. But I’m probably going to got out and kick some tires and see some friends. If either of you want to walk around and get some info that is unbiased. I’d take you around and give you a primer, answer what I can. Some one did the same for Roman and I. p.m. me.
Anyway you slice it, it is fun. Beats doing any kind of drug. Beats hanging in bars. It is a clean adrenaline rush that is hard to beat and when you come down from it, you are around really good people. Whats not to like about that. If you’re around long enough, you can see future superstars forming and may even be one yourself. It’s fun to follow some of these young racers who ran / run karts out there competing in other race series and doing well. Some very unassuming drivers can rip your head off when the visor flips down, that is one of the most entertaining things for me to observe. Walk around the pits and observe some of the fastest drivers and how they behave after a good hard race.
I know how hungry you are for information when trying to learn about it. I’ve been around it for a while and still feel that way to a degree. Search this forum and http://www.ekartingnews.com/. Look in “Tag” “Rotax” “General discussion” If you search Noobie Question, you’ll get a lot of entry level answers. Just remember to weigh some of the comments, just because it’s on the internet does not make it true. use your discretion. They have a “Getting Started” (or something like that) tab. You may be past that, but some info may be useful.
Later, Rick
Vampire / Imi home track. Strong, low maintenance package that looks good and, did I mention it”s strong? Look at http://www.mylaps.com/ and decide for yourself.
