Should we allow front brakes for TAG?

Home Forums General Discussion Should we allow front brakes for TAG?

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  • #56237
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Eddie,

    Why did you lose your brakes at Greeley-cause?

    My preference is not to have front brakes.

    If people want them then go for it.

    Is it an advantage: I think for the advanced to expert racer yes but others no because you have to have fine foot pedal pressure control. I don’t qualify my opinion

    #56238
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I vote for duel rears! Then you have your safety and it doesn’t require the rest of us to spend $800 and you don’t get any advantage. If you want the fronts so bad run a shifter. This increases in cost is :bs:

    I have to put 75 lbs of lead on my kart to make weight and feel that this a safey issue for myself and others. So I think we should have a lead weight limit of 35-40 lbs. If your not at weight with 35-40 lbs on your kart then you should be able to run under the min. weight. Why should I be put at risk just because I’m not the average american in weight?

    Just venting, rough day at the office!

    Ok ready for the reply.

    #56239
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Go Joe go give it to them vent

    Have to agree that is a lot of weight to add :argue

    :stir

    #56240
    Kirk Deason
    Participant

    Joe, quit running with the Masters, drop 30 lbs off and come run with seniors. I’m old(er) and would like to run with the fattties but not at that kind of lead-level. Seniors is just as fun and has comparably sized fields.

    #56241
    Greg Welch
    Participant

    After some testing I have found to be just a touch faster with the rears over the fronts. More testing will happen before we make our decision on what to run. I will hopefully be at IMI Saturday to see how they do on that track, then maybe Centennial two weeks later, and will hit Bandimere before the season starts.

    Guys in my opinion you don’t have to spend the money whether they are allowed or not. Kyle Ray will be fast whether he runs front brakes or not. Roman will be fast whether he runs front brakes or not. Really anyone who finished good last year will not go backwards front brakes or not.

    Karting should be cost effective. It still can be as long as people realize that guys like Kyle can win the championship on any kart with any engine with any brakes as long as they don’t fail.

    We have been big supporters of front brakes but after our testing and our customers around the country testing with thier Rotax’s, we have started to lean towards rear brake. Just get a rear brake that will hold up through the race.

    For masters, I realize that not many rear brakes will hold up, for you maybe front brakes should be considered as an additional cost.

    As far as duel rears, we tried them and the only problem I ran into was too much heat into the rotor. Especially when running the Rotax pipe that comes so close to the second caliper.

    We really are not bashing anyones ideas, just letting you know what we have found so far.

    #56242
    jj
    Participant

    When I mentioned dual rear brakes I meant two setups, including two rotors. Yes that is a bit of extra weight, but both rotors would stay a bit cooler and you could even use the slightly lighter, thinner and smaller rotors if you used two of them. That would keep things cooler, a bit heavier, but lighter than front brakes, and yet would provide a fully redundant system.

    #56243
    jj
    Participant

    Joe, Sorry, but making a minimum weight is NOT a safety issue!

    You are tryint to put everyone else at a disadvantage by running at a lower and much faster weight. Acceleration is related to the square of the weight. This is why their are minimum weights for car racing and horse racing. To keep thing fair.

    Safety is even less of a factor when you have that much weight to add since you can add an extra set of brakes or bolt the weight on with the same sturdy mounts used for batteries, radiators or even engines. With that much weight to add you can also use that to set up a perfect balance on the kart. This is not a safety issue and it would be wrong to let anyone race below weight. It is absurd to claim you are being penalized somehow.

    #56244
    Garrick Mitchell
    Participant

    @jj wrote:

    Acceleration is related to the square of the weight.

    F = ma, or a = F/m = Fg/(weight). It’s an inverse relationship, but there’s no squared term. In other words, acceleration is proportional to the reciprocal of the weight, not to the reciprocal of the square of the weight. OK, F isn’t exactly constant over a range of RPMs, but you’re still integrating over the same power curve.

    Aero drag increases with the square of the airspeed, but that’s not the same thing (although the drag does counteract the engine output to decrease the force F available for acceleration). Yes, I’m a Mechanical Engineer, thanks for asking. :loony:

    I’m still having trouble wrapping my brain around the notion that FWB doesn’t matter from a lap-time perspective, but then again I’m still at the “brakes too much, just happy to get back to the pits under his own power” phase. 😳

    #56245
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I am trying to make a point. By adding 75 pounds of lead to the kart it in essence becomes a missle. For example if you were to cross the street and be struck by a honda civic there would be damage. But if you were it by an SUV there would be carnage. Same thing with the kart. In an accident would you rather be hit by a flipping kart with 75lbs of additional lead or by one without? It’s not a disavantage, it’s about safety. Just like the folks who have issue with brake failure.

    #56246
    larry toby
    Participant

    Joe,

    I would agree with you if the karts didn’t have drivers in them; i.e., remote controlled. However, karts are weighted with drivers and they are approximately the same weight (min weight for the class). Heavy driver with light kart equals light driver with heavy kart. I don’t see how one combination of weight is any safer or more dangerous than another.

    #56247
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Larry, what would you rather be hit with traveling at 80 mph a 5 lb weight or a 50 lb weight. Makes sense to me!

    #56248
    larry toby
    Participant

    Joe, I still don’t understand your point. :idn: Since every kart crash I have seen involved a kart with the driver in it hitting another kart I don’t understand how a lighter kart with a heavier driver is any different than a heavier kart with a lighter driver if both setups are still the same total weight. If you are saying you simply want the overall weights lowered than you are suggesting that lighter drivers should get an advantage over heavier drivers. Do you feel heavier drivers are faster than lighter drivers and therefore need to be handicapped? :bs: If you want karts to weigh 5 pounds than I suggest you take up racing remote cars. But be careful, I hear they are very dangerous because of the speeds they can reach. :loony:

    #56249
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Joe,

    You may be better off running Tag Senior with your size. You would feel better about not putting so much weight on your Kart. And maybe feel safer for yourself and those around you.

    Some don’t have the choice to pick a class that is lower in weight like you do, they HAVE to bite the bullet and run weight if they choose to compete, seems like you have a choice.

    Not sure if I would rather be run over by your 390 lbs of kart, driver and lead or Romans 415 lbs of kart and driver at 80 mph.

    Joe & JJ,

    Two rotors and calipers on one axle created an extreme amount of heat sink into the rear axle and rotating assembly. Also walk around the paddock and see how many Tag karts are running the 3rd bearing tight. Hardly any. So how do you mount a caliper bracket to a cassette you are letting float to keep the chassis freed up?

    Looks like the Csc has made a decision and included it in the Csc 2007 rules, lets just go with it and run.

    #56250
    Mike Jansen
    Participant

    Guyz:
    Doug Welch sells an aluminum heat sink you can attach next to the brake rotor to lose heat off the disc. Let’s get him here to answer what could be an obvious help…

    #56251
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I’ve got an idea Mike. You add the second rotor assembly and a heat sink or two to your rotating mass and see how she pulls off the bottom and how she stops with all that rotating weight. (You would even clearly be able to tell while its on the still on the stand!) It’s going to be like watching an elecrtic grinder wind down. Being a pilot too, doesn’t sound like such a safety bonus to me. Try increasing the rotating weight of your prop by that percentage) Dual rear rotor / caliper assembly’s are allowed in several sanctioning bodies and I’ve never seen it run by anyone? Has anyone else? Hum, wonder why.

    Doug is on his way back from the kart expo as is Brad and the weather has not been to favorable. But yes ask him what a couple of rotors and heat sinks will do (if anything) to the kart.

    Rick

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