Home › Forums › General Discussion › Should we allow front brakes for TAG?
- This topic has 100 replies, 28 voices, and was last updated 17 years, 11 months ago by
Rick Schmidt.
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- January 18, 2007 at 3:59 pm #41862
Brad Linkus
ParticipantShould we allow front brakes for TAG and if so with a weight penalty?
January 18, 2007 at 5:46 pm #56178Curt Kistler
ParticipantIt should be a all or nothing decision. Running a mix of fronts with no fronts creates different driving lines that make for some pretty unhappy drivers at the end of the day.
We had that experience in the 80 shifter days running with both. At a track like CRE, turn 3 was a crash fest.Just my thoughts.
January 18, 2007 at 6:15 pm #56179Mike Jansen
Participantconcurr with Curt
January 18, 2007 at 8:51 pm #56180Anonymous
InactiveI’m having my kart setup with front brakes. I will use them for the mile high challenge and disconnect them for CSC. It would be nice not to disconnect them, but I’m up for what ever you smart people come up with.
Tony
January 18, 2007 at 9:03 pm #56181cgordon
ParticipantI think that we’d be better off if front brakes weren’t allowed in either TaG or Rotax – they’re just more money we’ll all pay just to stay even with each other. However, since Rotax does allow front brakes and TaG USA is apparently allowing them now, I think the CSC should allow them so that one kart can be competitive and legal in both series.
I don’t think that front brakes are really much, if any, of an advantage in lap speeds – nobody running up front at the Grand Nationals was using them. I do think they will give an advantage when passing a non-front brake kart.
Another concern is that when everyone has front brakes passing will be even more difficult than it is now. The braking zones will be even shorter and there will be less distance to make a pass. Even though I like the MG Yellows, I think they’ve had the same effect. We’ve got too much grip for good racing.
I guess this is a schizophrenic post, but I allowing front brakes will be an advantage for anybody running both Rotax and TaG.
Charles
January 18, 2007 at 9:49 pm #56182Greg Welch
ParticipantIn Florida only 4 to 5 people ran front brakes and I was one of them. The highest I qualified was eight and my highest running position on the track was fourth. I also was the highest qualifier with front brakes, I was actually the only one in the top 15 who ran the front brakes. A similar situation happened last year.
They do not penalize front brakes because NO ONE has won Rotax Grandnationals running front brakes to date. My feeling is that all 16+ classes should have the option of running front brakes.
So, for anyone saying we have to go spend the extra money to get front brakes, why? They have not been proven faster. As for having both on track at the same time- even though they do require different driving styles and lines, you mean to tell me that throughout the course of a normal race there are not different driving styles and lines?
Front brakes will also make the transition between TaG and Shifter easier, since the driving styles will become very similar.
As far as safety goes, it will be safer to allow front brakes on karts on the track. Even if only one person can avoid a wreck because they were able to slow down in a straight line faster then rear brake karts, then we have done our job keeping on track action safe.
For those guys who are worried about cost, you don’t need them. If you think you do and go buy them I doubt there will be any on track speed improvements. You don’t have to buy them just because they are legal, I mean I could tell people that wearing driving shoes that are too small will help the aerodynamic flow of a kart and I’m sure that one person who go buy smaller shoes.
It is a good choice and I support allowing front brakes in TaG senior and masters.
January 18, 2007 at 10:55 pm #56183Anonymous
InactiveMost of you won’t read a post that is this windy and I don’t blame you! But I have points to make here. Sorry
I absolutely disagree with Curt and Mike on this.
It is clearly proven in Rotax not to become a “crash fest” or be a performance advantage! Look at the results guy’s, every other position has Ft brakes, does not have Ft brakes, has Ft brakes etc…Where is the advantage? Rotax has their stuff together where safety and consistency is concerned.
Curt / Mike, are you comparing Shifter braking to Tag? I would NEVER mix shifters on the track at the same time, some with brakes and some without, especially in a class like 80cc Shifter which may be the first shifter the pilot has driven. You as fathers of the 80 drivers should have stood someone up on that! There were drivers who ran the front brakes and just took the weight penalty, whats up with that. Plus I seriously doubt any of the 80 guys came across the scales a 400lbs – 430lbs. Hell, I wouldn’t even do that to the Pro Shifter pilots, it would be a recipe for disaster with the best of kart pilots! With a shifter the technique is totally different than Tag, and braking is executed in a straight line and as hard as you can, as late as you can, release, turn in, let the kart set and catch it with power. (point and shoot) I know there are exceptions but for the most part the bias is not adjusted to set the chassis or continued heavy braking after turn in. I can absolutely agree not mixing them in shifter but that’s not what we are talking about.
I’m really disappointed in Tagusa for folding because of internet forum activity (pressure) regarding the decision to let heavy guys (including Tag Masters) have front brakes as an option. They obviously know that there can be a problem or safety issue, 4-strokes got em so did Tag Heavy So did Masters for a day and a half. You would hope they look at the safety part, even if it’s a minority number of racers they are protecting, grow some stones and stick with what is right. For all the praise I’ve given them in the past for tackling a nearly impossible task of creating a level playing field in Tag with so many varying engines. I’ve really lost faith in them.
I’ve laid kinda low on this subject because I would rather just find another class that is safer rather than get flamed or have my kid face the embarrassment of negative big guy comments. Or get the old “you’re trying to get everybody to adapt to your overweight…” And that sucks, and I’ll tell you why. We have been working our way up through the ranks over the past several years. At first, we were shooting for a podium, that was our goal. We started to hit the podium more frequent then our sites shifted to winning every time we are on the track, we are there to win, still haven’t won a shifter race in 2 years (you guy’s got lucky at the last Csc Race, that was ours, then the rain came) We know it’s going to be an accomplishment when we do. We’ll know we’ve outperformed the best that day. That gets me to my point. 2005 Lee and George won the Masters Championship. Who did we want to beat in 2006? And he didn’t race, we wanted him, he was the best, not that they weren’t others that were good, but everyone wants to dethrone the Champ right? We were bummed. Well I’ve had racers calling us wanting to make sure what were running next year. Last year Roman was the best (in that class) and that’s who the cross hairs will be on next year. And we may well not run that class. It would have meant more to beat Lee outright! I’m sure beating Roman for the Championship fair and square next year would have brought the new Champ a great feeling of accomplishment. To be the best you have to beat the best, type thing.
We are not the only ones who have brake problems. And those of you who think I’m just whining, there is a big difference from 380 lbs and 400lbs+ We do not have issues at all with some circuits. But Bandi, The Track, Vegas or any track that has heavy braking zones too close together to allow the stored energy to dissipate between these zones. As Greg mentioned in an earlier post (by the way he runs ft brakes when he can, for safety reasons) our karts are for the most part designed to come across the scales somewhere around the mid 300lbs. (the median Italian driver is a little smaller) I don’t see a slug of weight on most of the Masters karts I see roll across the scales in the Csc. And I think there are a few drivers that may have decided not to run karts next year (Masters) and the brakes may have weighed in that choice.
Roman got is a$$ saved in Vegas at the end of the back straight, lost brakes, thank God he was on someone and he rode them into the corner, thankfully neither of them crashed and Roman offered an apology and explanation after the heat race. The driver finished the heat thinking there was a crazed serial killer behind him. Roman wasn’t the same the rest of the weekend. He wasn’t the only one, one guy lifted his kart onto the stand after scaling and both brake pads fell on the ground (no it wasn’t a Crg product) You know what? there are a lot worse concerns than losing all stopping power and going into something or someone. Sending your kid out there hoping an extremely hot rotor doesn’t explode and tear into the flesh on his back or God forbid penetrate from the bottom of the helmet. Kind of takes the fun out of it for me and my driver. Curt you were standing next to me in Vegas, not that much fun to #1 hope your driver doesn’t get hurt #2 hope he can finish with brakes. If Roman was 130 lbs soaking wet and Matt was a big kid, 200+ and did not have a lot of choices for classes to be competitive in and based on the comments above, I would be standing right behind you lobbying for changes so you would feel comfortable sending Matt out on the track. Couldn’t really say I don’t have a dog in that fight, could I?
We raced in Monaco. We were one of maybe 4 karts without front brakes. You know what? There were some damn good drivers there (Kyle was nearly lapped by the leader and he finished in 7th place!) and definitely the most aggressive drivers I’ve seen in kart racing. And I don’t think there was one instance of differential of brake capability causing an incident. The only time I could see any advantage to front brakes is, very sharp hairpin located at the end of a quite significant straight where you go from a very fast speed to a 20 mph (or so) corner. They are going to be a bit of a disadvantage on a high speed sweeper that requires light braking on entry. Sound familiar a Tag challenge? Some things work better at some tracks and some better at others?
If Tagusa thinks Tag 4-stroke at 400lbs need front brakes (which I totally agree with) and Tag Heavy needs front brakes at a possible 405lbs, Why wouldn’t Tag Masters be allowed to run them? Tag Masters min weight for the Sonik and some others is 430lbs! That’s min. weight! Thats not saying a driver / kart may not be over that! I understand the cost! The cost of my Gp karts was not $1000 more for front brakes! And I’ll bet I could upgrade them if I had to for a lot less than that $1000. (my health insurance has $1000 deductible per year?) And I’m very happy for the racers on Ekn that can get through an entire season on a rear brake only kart on 2-3 sets of pads! Wonder if they are fast or just have really wonderful brakes?
Why did Tagusa decide to make them permitted in Masters in the first place? Safety? What does their retraction do for that? Think I know why they changed it! Shouldn’t they have stuck by their decision? You have high profile people out there slamming the decision to allow front brakes and some are predominantly a Leopard Tag class who over rides the class weights for that engine to 355 and 385! They weren’t mandatory they were permitted or optional. Go back on Ekn a few years ago when all the racers were up in arms about Rotaxs decision to allow front brakes in the name of safety. Many of the same people were very adamant then too.Well… that kind of fizzled out didn’t it? Now the racers who want them run them and the ones don’t, don’t! No advantage and I guess the “big one” never happened. I believe that listening to the racer is a good idea, to a degree. Rotax stuck by there guns in the name of safety and it didn’t ruin their series. At least there is a little fortitude there. (and we have not run a Rotax for 2 seasons and do not currently run in that series) I’m certainly not going to hurt Tagusa (and have not desire too) by not running in a tag class and my feelings aren’t going to change anything. And yes, I’m a little passionate about this! I want to go next year and if there is a new champ in that class, make them earn it. The championship should run through us! Probable isn’t going to happen.
Getting frustrated and giving up on karting isn’t an option, our best friends and the people we enjoy spending time most with, are the competitors and shop / track owners. Plus, my wife still answers the phone “Pit Mom” when I call and she has never won anything. To be voted Pit Mom and Family of the Year by those same people. We would have to be there come hell or high water!
Sorry for another long post but I believe there points that racers aren’t looking at. And yes, I will state my opinion all day long on this subject because I feel it is safety related. It’s kart racing, it’s supposed to be fun but way before that, it should be safe and not just for our kids, everyone. In my opinion, the benefits far out weigh the risks.
Permitted = Yes Add weight = No
Rick
January 19, 2007 at 12:07 am #56184Mike Jansen
Participant@Mike Jansen wrote:
concurr with Curt
Rick, Great post and I’m man enough to say, I honestly don’t know because I’ve only run fronts on Brad’s vampire one day and the kart wasn’t set up for me.
Curt, Matt hasn’t run in TaG and all I can say is the lines are pretty much the same because momentum plays a HUGE part in it. Sure, you could get down to entry speed but you best have the correct line or you’ll be repassed on exit due to bind and other factors. Seen it many a time in my class and others.
I personally haven’t had a brake failure (knock on wood) but sticking a throttle at Bandimere 3 times had pucker factor! Luckily I didn’t damage anything but my position. Roman’s hard on brakes and we’re the same size weight wise. He’s also been faster than myself (last year only) 8)
The Track in July wasn’t fun and we all had brake issues (see my spiffy ductwork MIKE FRANK rigged and it was much better). I question would we have had the issue with fronts.I don’t know the answer but I DO KNOW that adding weight (IMHO) is a knee jerk reaction. I can’t eat anymore skinless chicken.
I don’t know the answer but if Rotax racers vary with and without and Roman ran at Monaco without (the minority) then there’s something to be said there.
January 19, 2007 at 12:58 am #56185Tom Dennin
ParticipantWould the addition of 10lbs for front brakes or the reduction of 10lbs for of those without front brakes lead to the same basic braking point?
My 2 cents, let’s mix the field up with karts with and without front brakes. Might as well seeing how the weights are not correct for the motor packages any how. :bang
Tom
January 19, 2007 at 1:10 am #56186Tony LaPorta
ParticipantEven though im a new guy i agree 100% with Curt. i think a mix of Fronts and no fronts will be a BAD idea 😯 .
January 19, 2007 at 3:21 am #56187Mike Edwards
ParticipantMaybe I missed something along the way….. but, I’m not sure of the reasons why karts don’t have 4 wheel brakes anyway but if you look at the bigger picture, almost any racecar you get in after go karts is going to have some type of brake biasing adjustment and now is the time to learn how to adjust them. I believe any kart, Tag Jr and up should have 4 wheel brakes if all you look at is the safety perspective just because of the increased speeds. So if someone could please explain why they don’t other than cost…. :idn:
Thanks
Mike EdwardsJanuary 19, 2007 at 3:41 am #56188Anonymous
InactiveTom Dennin
PostPosted: Thu 01 18, 2007 5:58 pm Post subject:
Would the addition of 10lbs for front brakes or the reduction of 10lbs for of those without front brakes lead to the same basic braking point?No it wouldn’t.
Does Rotax carry a weight penalty for FWB? To change brake points?
Looks like more of the Rotax Masters choose to run them than do International and Juniors. The only class not allowing them is Mini max, they are mandatory in DD2.
Are you going to run them in Rotax? Judging from Rotax, there must not be a significant performance difference or safety issue, some choose to run them and some don’t. Seems they would have figured ot out by now if there was and made a revision.Tom Dennin
PostPosted: Thu 01 18, 2007 5:58 pm Post subject:
Might as well seeing how the weights are not correct for the motor packages any how.Which motor package weights are you not happy with Tom?
January 19, 2007 at 4:42 pm #56189jj
ParticipantI somewhat reluctantly voted yes. Reluctant because this would require more expense as I’d need to add these to my kart. Not really thrilled about the additional expense.
The reason I said yes though is because I’m a pilot and value the safety factor of a second, backup system.If accepted, we should require the use of two Master Cylinders, prohibiting running all brakes off of one MC (not that I expect anyone would do that).
One question though. Since I”m relatively new to karting I’m asking for clarification. In my experience the advantage someone may have with front & back brakes is the ability to brake into a corner rather than before.
Isn’t it true that rear only brake essentailly cause a tail skid situation if you brake through the corner?
Given a well setup F&R system doesn’t that allow for braking while turning with less chance for a braking spinout situation?January 19, 2007 at 6:05 pm #56190RBI
ParticipantBottom line is rear brake karts were designed for lightweight Italians with way more rubber on the track. Each year the engine manufacturers and builders come up with more and more HP. Would everyone agree that we have more HP now then we did 110 years ago?
Look at the power to weight ratio compared to 10 years ago. Look at top speed to weight ratio in the masters class. I feel that if TAG USA keeps throwing weight to engines with more power then something needs to be done to stop the karts. More power + More weight = more momentum. A nice combo for disaster.
For those that say front brakes do not make a dif, lets test it. I guarantee that I could out brake anyone with rears only. I have driven both. I can go twice as deep, and keep my exit speed.
Rick, I would be willing to help with a test after the enduro here next month. Roman and I can setup our karts with and without fronts. We can run the same laps, check the g-forces on the mycron, check entry and exit speeds, check braking points etc etc.
I do think it is an advantage and would be willing to help to reslove it with testing. Brad, if you can make it over for the race, we can get the test setup. The perfect option would be to add 10lbs to front brake karts. We can also test with the weights as well. If we need we can do all setup at my shop as it’s a bit nippy here and I do not have my rig to haul m big trailer any longer. I am sure Stacey would lend us a heated part of his shop since it is for the CSC.
What does everyone think? We can use several drivers as to avoid bias and get true readings. We can have Rudy run sessions with the heavy weights as he is very consistent at GJ (and I think everywhere else).
What do we think?
Sorry for the typing but it is only 58 degrees in my office and my fingers are not working.
Richie
January 19, 2007 at 6:44 pm #56191Doug Welch
Participant@jj wrote:
Reluctant because this would require more expense as I’d need to add these to my kart. Not really thrilled about the additional expense.
You don’t need to spend the money. In Rotax competition where they have allowed FWB for a year, there appears to be no advantage. In fact, the fastest guys have consistantly been on rear brake only karts. In Rotax, both karts run at the same weight.
@jj wrote:
One question though. Since I”m relatively new to karting I’m asking for clarification. In my experience the advantage someone may have with front & back brakes is the ability to brake into a corner rather than before.
Isn’t it true that rear only brake essentailly cause a tail skid situation if you brake through the corner?
Given a well setup F&R system doesn’t that allow for braking while turning with less chance for a braking spinout situation?This is where the driving styles are different. Actually, the fact that you can rotate the kart with the rear brakes can be an advantage in certain corners. A decreasing radius corner for example that has a full on throttle entrance and you have to brake at some point in the corner. A rear brake only kart has a strong advantage over FWB. A different example, a tight corner that is at the end of a straight. Here the FWB kart has the advantage. Over all, in terms of lap times on the track, rear brake karts might be slightly faster than FWB karts.
One of the reasons that FWB karts have been slower may be more due to the nature of the karts that come with them. Traditionally, only shifter karts have them. Shifter karts are designed for higher hp than TaG karts. Such karts are a bit on the stiff side for Tag karts. Most guys who run front brakes in Tag are running shifter karts. We are one of the few manufacturers that use a Tag kart and install FWB on them. But we still have not proven to be faster than traditional RWB karts.
@jj wrote:
The reason I said yes though is because I’m a pilot and value the safety factor of a second, backup system.
As so many have pointed out, here is the real reason and in my opinion, the main reason to allow them. Particularly at the master weights.
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