Should we allow front brakes for TAG?

Home Forums General Discussion Should we allow front brakes for TAG?

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  • #56207
    jj
    Participant

    I think it is reasonable to offer the option.
    The dual cylinder rear brakes do give some safety margin as well although not as good as two sets of fully functioning brakes.

    I’m sure that for some the front brakes will be an advantage. On a car about 70% of your braking comes from the front tires and this also will shift weight and traction to the front of a kart. It appears that the better drivers use the brakes to help skid the rear around on some turns. So which works better will depend on driving style and skill.

    My gut feel (no hard data) is that the rear setup is lighter and less difficult to keep in balance so many top racers benefit from a more predictable kart setup with rears only.

    Regardless, if there is no compelling reason to prohibit front brakes then I believe we should allow them as an option.

    #56208
    Jim Keesling
    Participant

    Having to lug my sorry a@@ around the track at 430 lbs. I can tell you FWB would make the racing safer, and will not change the driving line or style.
    We all know, you need speed thru the corners in a TaG. The only thing FWB will do is make my kart stop at the end of 20 laps.

    I think Sam Walls went thru 12 sets of pads in Vegas, and I went thru at least 5. If i didn’t change them out after 10 laps. I was cooked for the next session. The 20 lap main was a huge concern!

    I have not seen a problem with the motors getting us heavier guys around the track, I do see a problem with stopping us in a tight situation.

    My .02 cents.

    Jim

    #56209
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Troy Howell
    PostPosted: Sat 01 20, 2007 11:35 pm Post subject:
    Lets say you are not producing faster lap times with front brakes for the sake of the argument. At the very least it would appear from these quotes (I agree with) that you would be able to out-braking someone without them into a corner. Explain to me how this is not an advantage.

    It’s slow in slow out. It’s all about exit speed in Tag, isn’t it? Troy. It’s not a shifter. Out braking or over-braking could result in waiting to get back on the pipe. How many corners at the tracks we have here do you think they would be an advantage? Off hand I can only think of one that you just want to park it without the benefit of momentum with trail braking.

    Not much concern about the cost to the racer in all this. The pricepoint for Tag will now be about what it is for Spec 125 and I think could hurt the Tag class.

    I think Sam Walls went thru 12 sets of pads in Vegas, and I went thru at least 5. If i didn’t change them out after 10 laps. I was cooked for the next session. The 20 lap main was a huge concern!

    Don’t make them mandatory, just permit them. I spent enough in pads, rotors etc… in Vegas alone, to buy us BOTH front brakes. Vegas was only one of the venues we had challenges. Yes the cost if enough to justify another class or type of racing.

    larry toby
    PostPosted: Sun 01 21, 2007 7:48 am Post subject:
    Troy,This also addresses your cost concern if FWB’s are made optional. It has been proven that cost is not an issue IF you want the fastest kart because FWB’s are not faster or winning when compared to RWB only karts. If safety is more of a concern to a driver than absolute performance then they have the option to spend the money for FWB’s.

    Roman does not like fWB on the Tag, but the last 3 races cost so much money and stress hoping to be able to finish safely. On the shifter with FWB we change pads a few times a year, On the Tag it can be every time we come off track and some times we don’t finish a session.

    For those concerned about safety doesn?t a rear brake only set-up that has dual calipers and master cylinders with a high quality rotor have any merit?

    I think I even spoke to you about trying that in Vegas. This is not your problem at all but in the Tag we need to run the 3rd cassette loose or we’re over stuck in the rear end (that kind of sounds bad, lol) may be able to figure out a way to mount a caliper bracket and still float the cassette, haven’t seen it done but may be possible. And if we intend to go to the Super Nationals next year? With Tagusa approval and subsequent retraction of the use of Fwb, we’ll need to figure out something if we run in Tag. Unless Tom allows them. He saw what was happening.

    Larry,
    What you said.

    #56210
    Troy Howell
    Participant

    Hey Rick,

    Good to hear from you and your responses to my posts. I hope you are healing well. Everyone else?s responses are also appreciated. We all have the common love for our motor sports that draws us together in competition, community, and friendship.

    My main concern here is having the Tag classes continue to grow and to avoid changes that may be detrimental to that. I don?t want to see Tag become a checkbook racing class.

    I?m curious as to who would run front brakes if they are allowed as optional and of those who would do it for safety reasons vs. possible performance advantage. A new poll? We have nothing better to do with all this snow.

    #56211
    Angel Ramirez
    Participant

    :loony: we used front brakes only for safety reasons,i think we were the only ones last season with them and i do not see any advantage over the rest with out fb.

    angel ramirez #89 2006 IMI champ.
    luis ramirez #88 4th.
    eduardo pinzon#13f
    sergio quintanilla #55

    #56212
    Jon Romenesko
    Participant

    While i love the challenge that having rear brakes only provides, and the fun driving style that it offers (being able to rotate the kart with a stab of the pedal 8) ), it’s hard to argue against the safety benefits that FWB offer. I had my brakes fail once when i was practicing at Bandi a year ago at widowmaker (thankfully i just spun off into the dirt), and very nearly at the GGP (leaking caliper). Both were pretty scary! 😯

    I wouldnt argue against FWB in TaG, for sure. If we do allow it, i’d have to scrape up a couple hundred extra, but that’s not a huge deal if it helps me avoid a much larger hospital bill!

    Oh, and if anyone wants a convincing reason to keep Rear brakes only, i offer this link: http://www.karting1.co.uk/karting-lockups.htm 8)

    #56213
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Hey Troy,

    I’m getting better everyday. I had hoped having my surgery the week before x-mas would be better for the shop while being a (key word) little short staffed without me during a typical slower time of the year. They got slammed and I had to sit at home and try not to push coming back. That’s the hardest part. Thanks for the concern, I’ll be a little sore for a bit and it’s also been so cold I would be stiff, even without the last surgery! It’s going well. Thanks for the concern.

    Hopefully, our other racers get there quick too, seems like a lot of us are healing right now. Some of us aren’t kids any more, wonder if that has anything to do with it!

    Troy Howell
    PostPosted: Sun 01 21, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject:
    Good to hear from you and your responses to my posts. I hope you are healing well. Everyone else?s responses are also appreciated. We all have the common love for our motor sports that draws us together in competition, community, and friendship.

    Right back atcha, I feel the same way.

    My main concern here is having the Tag classes continue to grow and to avoid changes that may be detrimental to that. I don?t want to see Tag become a checkbook racing class.

    I think the people who are around the sport for a while, owe it to be ambassadors of the sport and help it grow in anyway they can. If this Poll was “Should FWB be Mandatory” My vote would change, end of the conversation for me if I thought it would price any potential racers out of this sport. Especially the Masters racer, who is out there for fun and the competition, lets face it, some of the best racing in our series but not too many future F1 drivers in there. But they are the ones this effects. Look at all the attempts to add ducting to keep the brakes cool! I’m on the other side of this checkbook thing. Pads, rotors and calipers are not cheap and as you know work in harmony. New pads on a shot rotor is a waste of pad, a new rotor when caliper pistons won’t retract is a waste of a rotor. Can’t even imagine going out at the Class A weight all season. At Vegas the Biland was very fast for us even at the weight they had it, but our kart would have been lucky to finish a ten lap heat with any brake left.

    I?m curious as to who would run front brakes if they are allowed as optional and of those who would do it for safety reasons vs. possible performance advantage. A new poll? We have nothing better to do with all this snow.

    Honestly, Just as an arm chair quarter back thinking about this whole situation. we aren’t even sure what were running next year but it could be a couple Tag classes. Some of that decision may depend on FWB’s. That being said, if we run the Motori in tag, we may face more than the original 10lb penalty assessed. Then FWB would make a bigger difference to us. If we decided to run Rotax, the combined Max, Imi / Track races would not matter (if you choose to be scored for both) as whoever choses to run them in Rotax will be mixed with the rest of the Tags. (Rotax Rules over ride Csc) Now will the Rotaxs that run in the Imi / Track Series (not Max combined) have to remove the front brakes for the Club Series only races? A little complicated? Tagusa should have just stayed with FWB in my opinion. You’ll have FWB permitted and FWB not allowed on the track at the same time anyway. If we run Tag 4-stroke FWB would not be an issue to us directly but would still have concerns for those who run masters that have the same challenges we did. Although, could it be possible Tag 4-stroke would be combined with non FWB Tag class on the track at the same time on race day for the Csc, Max /Club and Club only Series? I would be surprised to see any of the Tag 4-Strokes at 400lbs running without FWB even though they are permitted not mandatory.

    As far as a poll on who would use them and would they use them for safety or performance? Arm chairing again, I don’t think we would run FWB at Gjms or Imi, we would remove or dial out FWB, I might even leave them on depending on a weight penalty for having FWB on the kart. In fact IF all the tracks were running as Rotax Max and we were running that series. I would do the same thing with brakes. That would be for safety and cost for sure. Seems to me like Rotax Masters class is pretty close to Tag Masters, and the Rotax Masters fields don’t see a big difference in performance. I don’t know why we would see a big performance difference. It would however seem to benefit a high torque power plant that was capable of recovering from low exit speed. But is it going to be a big enough difference to change the outcome? I really doubt it. I imagine one section of the track FWB might be slightly better and other sections trail braking might be slightly better. For example: where FWB may gain a kart length or 2 in the hairpin, it will cost the same 2 kart lengths on the rest of the circuit. Seems like only two of our tracks have a corner that could benefit from FWB but what about the rest of the track. Looking at the complexion of the whole circuit should be looked at more . Also the previous statement (better in one part of the track and worse in another) being a big safety concern wasn’t even a big enough difference to mention.

    Anyway Troy, there are a lot of ways to look at this. I’ll just have Roman take you both out on lap one of the pre-final then Troys tuner and Romans tuner can enjoy watching both of you charge through the pack! Wait!!! We’ve already done that haven’t we? And you POWDERED a hay bale better than I have ever seen in my life. Rofl! It’s all good fun and we’ll figure out a way no matter whats decided!

    At least our forum going again! Huh?

    Later, Rick

    #56214
    RBI
    Participant

    Do you think it would be faster if I brake 5 kart lengths deeper, got on the gas at the same point, and had the same exit speed as when I run rear brakes only?

    Grand Jct, IMI, the track etc all have fast straights that lead to hard braking. You don’t think these will be just as big of an advantage as tighter tracks if not more.

    Just because you have front brakes does not mean you need to slow down more than if you only had rears. Braking later does not mean over slowing your kart. There is a big difference in the two.

    If the testing has been done, and there is no true advantage then let front brakes be an option without adding weight. Just don’t change it mid season when someone goes in deeper than you.

    It seems testing has been done so we will not do it unless we need to in order to clarify the rules. I am just trying to help, not cause conflict.

    Richie

    #56215
    Tom Dennin
    Participant

    RBI Posted: Mon 01 22, 2007 12:15 pm Post subject:



    Do you think it would be faster if I brake 5 kart lengths deeper, got on the gas at the same point, and had the same exit speed as when I run rear brakes only?

    Exactly what I thought. So at the end of the day a kart that gains say 1 to 2 kart length at a particular corner every lap and is equal with everyone else in every other corner would be 20-40 kart lengths better at the end of a 20 lap race??

    Also, since we are talking about TAG with various engine combinations. Wouldn’t some motors fair better than others with front brakes? Comparing FWB to RWB only karts in a spec class like Rotax is not the same comparision as FWB to RWB only karts for various engine packages. You have now entered many more variables into the equation.

    This points exactly back to why & how the weights for each motor pkg are unique and ever evolving.

    Tom

    #56216
    Jon Romenesko
    Participant

    Ooh, yeah, Tom brings up a good point. I’d imagine that the ability to trail brake would lend itself better to the Rotax’s powerband (able to keep the revs up). Course i’ve never driven a Rotax with FWB, but it makes some sense to me….

    #56217
    Troy Howell
    Participant

    I am with Richie?s and Tom?s comments. I respect those flying the safety flag and their concerns and comments but I still have not been convinced that FWB wouldn?t provide a performance advantage.

    We all know how it works in racing from F1 to karting. Everyone is looking for an advantage or at what the fast people are doing in order to keep pace. If Ferrari or another team has a new aero treatment all the other teams are testing it and putting on their car. If someone in karting is winning on a regional or national level others consider the equipment for their next purchase even though it was more to do with the combination of driver, motor, kart, and tuner doing the winning. People can get the perception that it was the kart or motor or ????FWB. I?m sure that CRG and Swedetech sold some karts and motors because of what happened in Vegas.

    This leads me to what happens if someone wins a few races with front brakes or even the championship in a class that allows it as optional? Wouldn?t it possibly give others the perception that there is an advantage with them? Would people in the class feel compelled to have them? Would newcomers to the class think it is necessary to have them? The price of poker just went up.

    If someone at the Florida Winter Tour were to win I bet you would see more people running FWB. Greg and Doug, you mentioned that you run at the FWT with them for the extra safety margin but I can?t believe you would have them on the kart if it was detrimental to your performance in some way. You guys are going there to win, not just to participate.

    What is the plan from here with this poll Brad started? Will CSC do its own thing on this issue or follow Tag USA (if it keeps the rules as currently stated)? Who is it that will make the final decision for what CSC will do? When would that decision be made?

    We sure do not need a situation like what the Renault F1 team suffered last year. Time and money spent to develop a mass damper system, allowed to run with it for most of the season only to be told midway through that it had to be removed. I sure don?t want to see people spend the money for FWB to run part of a season or even just one season later to be told to remove it.

    Final thought and you can shoot me on this one. If safety is the main concern behind the voting and a push for FWB shouldn?t in be made mandatory. After all, some people don?t like wearing seatbelts but it?s required not optional for your own safety. Right?

    #56218
    larry toby
    Participant

    Yeah! Exactly the same way I felt… a year an a half ago before we had hundreds of real life races to evaluate. This isn’t hard. Just allow FWB and see what happens. The fast guys are still going to win, the guys in the middle will still be there and the guys in the back will still think something is wrong with their karts. FWB are not going to change results. If you don’t believe that now then no amount of discussion will change your mind. If you have to see it to believe if than allow FWB and see for yourself. Allow those who have legitimate concerns about safety to have some peace of mind. As for us, we will likely not use FWB and will not think twice about the guy next to us on the grid that does have them. It was extremely hard for me to believe that having additional braking ability would not be an advantage but “seeing is believing.”

    #56219
    Mike Jansen
    Participant

    Exactly. Next thing you know someone’s going to run Fetzer valves and then everyone will run em… :cheers:

    It’s today’s weather warming talking…

    #56220
    larry toby
    Participant

    I thought you were already running Fetzer valves? :idn: Rumor is that they help a kart turn quickly and run faster in reverse. I saw three of your competitiors mounting them after the last CSC race. Seeing is believing.

    #56221
    Mike Jansen
    Participant

    It’s all about Ball Bearings nowadays Larry… 😛

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