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So someone tell me about the tag 4 stroke class…tell the difference in maintainence, costs, where can I see one of them…give me enough info to be interested.
Tim
@fuzzy wrote:
So someone tell me about the tag 4 stroke class…
…And do they use 219 chains? How are the chains holding up with all that power, or are they turning at enough lower RPM that it’s not a big issue?
Garrick & Fuzzy,
Plan on spending some time at IMI with “Mr.Blink”, Brad Linkus. You may want to call first to make sure he will be there @ 303-833-4949.Blink will take the time to fully explain all of the different power plants available, costs to purchase, planned maintenance costs, HP, torque, chassis set-up’s…..He has many motors in stock both new and slightly used, and is the service center for all of the different manufactures.
We ran one of his Orel motors in the TAG World Championships and almost won the event on a motor we knew nothing about. They are fast on top and off the bottom, sound great, easy to assemble and the lap times were that of our times in a full blown Pro ICC when we ran that class. You can even run pump gas through them for club racing and practice time to keep the cost down.
Give IMI a call and be prepared to get edjakated 😉
Post by Doug Welch on Thu 11 22, 2007 12:57 pm
Next year, The Track at Centennial will be running a Masters DD2 class. It will be a true Masters, class, with 35 the minimum age. Weight will be 420#.Doug, this going to be strictly age based without weight consideration? If RMC chooses to run a dd2 Masters, will it be run along the same lines as Rotax masters, offering a place for heavy drivers. Spoke with Joe about this last weekend and that seemed to be the drift. Local option for 35 years minimum?
Post by Doug Welch
The cost of a DD2 package is $1,000 to $1,200 less than any of the current 4 cycles when you include the radiator and mounts.
You and I have spoken about the cost of a new DD2, assembled and out the door. Even considering “street prices” seems the 4-Stroke is a little less money. Maybe I’m missing something.
Post by Doug Welch
For most racers, this package will be far less maintenance than just about any kart engine,Even less maintenance than a 4 Stroke?
Post by fuzzy on Fri 11 23, 2007 7:19 am
So someone tell me about the tag 4 stroke class…tell the difference in maintenance, costs, where can I see one of them…give me enough info to be interested.Fuzz, pretty much, what Curt said. These are bumping the high 50’s at IMI, close to full on Icc times but with very drivable horsepower. You can see ours, we would like to get 1000 – 1200 laps this off season (come on weather) so we’ll be out there.
A wise man once said “it’s stupid to start someone in a shifter” and I had to agree with him.
Post by Garrick on Fri 11 23, 2007 8:09 am
fuzzy wrote:So someone tell me about the tag 4 stroke class…
…And do they use 219 chains? How are the chains holding up with all that power, or are they turning at enough lower RPM that it’s not a big issue?
Garrick, they use 219 chains. We change every 2 race weekends, but I do the same with a Rotax or Tag. If you do not adjust your tension properly or trail brake excessively, it will clean the gears right off. We have not had a chain or gear failure in the 1st year. Come out and ride it. They have amazing engine brake power and balls deluxe on the bottom.
The DD2 is a great package with stable rules. But the 4 stroke is brutal and will probably become the fastest growing class, not only as it was last year in Colorado, but in karting in general. Been watching Moto Cross for the past 5 years? The 4-Strokes are here to stay. Doug mentioned “several engines sold this fall” so there may be good size classes in the light and heavy DD2, the 4 Strokes already have several packages sitting on karts now. I guess we’ll see next year. We want to race against the largest, deepest fields.
Rick
@Rick Schmidt wrote:
Garrick, they use 219 chains. We change every 2 race weekends, but I do the same with a Rotax or Tag. If you do not adjust your tension properly or trail brake excessively, it will clean the gears right off. We have not had a chain or gear failure in the 1st year. Come out and ride it. They have amazing engine brake power and balls deluxe on the bottom.
Yeah, after I posted I went to the engines4racing site and saw the specs. Was also interested to see the Oral and Vampire are outboard drive, so looks like concerns about fitting the engine are less than I thought.
Interesting stuff for when I get bored with the Rotax. I still need to learn to drive what I have first! 😀
Rick
The DD2 engine package is roughly $4,000 retail and is complete. No additional parts need to be purchased.
The 4 cycles are $4,600 to $4,800 retail and need some additional parts such as radiator, mounts, hoses and such. Comparable packages are at least $5,000 to $5,500 onces all parts a factored in.
The DD2 requires no maintenance on a regular basis. A change of transmission oil every 10 hours and regular cleaning of the power valve are the extent of maintenance. The motor should go at least 50 hours before it needs the top end serviced. That is more than a year for most karters. There is no chain to service.
The 4 cycle will need at least the chain serviced every race weekend (if not every time on track) and replacement every other weekend, just like a normal 2 cycle chain operated engine.
When it comes to regular maintenance, Stuff that needs to be done every race weekend, the DD2 will be less than the 4 cycles.
Everyone talks about speed, how fast? At IMI where there are no slow corners, things are very different than at tracks that have slow corners. At Grand Junction, our FR-125 (standard Rotax) was faster than all but two of the 4 cycles. We were pulling better off the slow corners, they were faster on top. Of course, driver may have had more than a little to do with that. Both engines have roughly the same hp, 34. But the DD2 has a high/low gear box. It will pull out of slow corners better than 4 cycle. At a track like The Track, the DD2 will have a clear advantage.
I did some searching for times at the Track comparing the DD2 with the 4 cycles. On any given day, the DD2’s were on average significantly quicker (usually around 1 second). The majority of the 4 cycles were in the 55 second range, the DD2 in the 54’s. AJ did have a best of 53.954 but I could find no other driver to get in the 54’s. The best for a DD2 was Kyle with a 53.0.
The DD2 heavy class that The Track will run next year is intended to be a true masters class of 35 and up.
ok all this is good but no one has answered my question……who makes this 4 stroke and are they in a class currently at the club level here locally. Are these motors electric start…………come on some one tell us something.
Rick you said you have one ..what is it?
Tim
@fuzzy wrote:
ok all this is good but no one has answered my question……who makes this 4 stroke and are they in a class currently at the club level here locally. Are these motors electric start…………come on some one tell us something.
Look here: http://engines4racing.com/ has plenty of photos and specs. The 3 engines at the top of the graphic (Oral, Vampire, Biland) are what you’re looking at. All are made in Europe and share little with what has traditionally been called “4-cycle racing” (Briggs & Stratton) aside from the combustion cycle. Of these, the Vampire is what I’ve seen/heard the most about here. I thought the Biland factory was closing down or changing hands; someone else will have to speak to its future. Brad Linkus at IMI up north of town is importing the Oral, Vampire, and Biland, hence the oft-repeated “talk to Brad” comments.
The tone of the information you’ll get on the 4-strokes depends on who you ask and in what basket he’s putting his eggs. Here’s the take of a guy who’s had a kart for a year and is just happy to go to the track and putz around, but who wants to have a package that will last a while. Yes, they’re electric start (TAG = Touch and Go) and have a centrifugal clutch, so no push-starts and you can get going again on your own after a spin. Benefits cited for the 4-strokes over 2-strokes like my Rotax are ungodly low-end torque, more horsepower, loooooong rebuild interval (1000 hours vs. 20-50?) [EDIT: lolz!], no mixing of fuel, and they sound quite different (reminiscent of the Buick stock blocks at Indy in the late 80’s compared to the Cosworth turbos).
Yes, they run at the club level in the IMI/The Track club series, and probably elsewhere. Depending on the number of karts showing up, they may (normally do?) run concurrently with other classes. It’s still a small class, but growing, and those who back it do so with fervor.
Off to the gym to work off all that turkey… 🙂
4 STROKE ENGINE NEEDS TO BE REBUILD AFTER 300HRS MAX. AND VALVE JOB AT 50HRS. SO MAKE SOME NUMBERS AND AT THE END IS THE SAME THING, THE GOOD THING IS NO OIL GAS MIX TO DO , THE BAD, THOSE 4 STROKE ENGINES EATS MORE CHAINS THAN A 2 STROKES.
We’ve gone away from chassis “expert’s” to power plants, I really feel the need for all the above, what a great choice of kart racing we have here.
Good pros and cons are being posted.
I think it would have been very spectacular to see a full field of 4 stroke tags blasting off to the first corner at the supernat race. Especially if the spec green fuel of Methanol was mysteriously powering the beast’s leaving a clear smoke free view for drivers, crews and fans.
Yep, with Brad and Jim doing a fine job at promoting and representing some of the best kart racing a racer would ever need and talk of “more and better” it makes it hard to narrow a choice down to one.When I started this post I was interested in what everyone had to say about chassis………now Ive got an idea of what I want because of everyone posts.
Now for a relative newbie….the powerplant talk is helping me also..widen my horizons. More questions have popped up………how many of the tag 4 strokes are run at the avergae club level race? Which motor is more popular…and why? Someone mention methanol…is that what is required to be run in the 4 stroke class? What clutch does the 4 strokes run and why such a puny chain?
Blink could you weigh on this question about up keep……….someone has said that one of the 4 stroke only goes 50 hrs before a top end needs to be overhauled……true or false?
How many of the karters out there are planning on going to the 4 stroke next year…….come on fess up.
Are there classes already set for the 4 strokes?Lets go back to chassis a minute……will the same chassis that works with a leopard or rotax work with a 4 stroke motor.
Thanks to everyone
Tim
Fuzzy (or who ever started the questions about DD2 vs. 4 stroke)
I like both packages, the DD2 looks awesome, and seems fun to drive. But I have to side with Rick and Brad on this one
(Not the “4 stroke is the wave of the future thing”) The DD2 is in essence a “Shifter” andfor a rookie the best thing to learn in is a Direct drive akaTaG. And The 4 stroke is a TaG, I myself have seen nothing but great racing produced by this motor with drivers such as Matt Kistler,Jesse Toby, AJ Noud and others. The 4 strokes are fast, Really Fast.
So my vote is 4 strokes.
But then again I’m a lowly lil’ 2 stroke racer. 😆
Just my 0.2 centsNot all of the TAG 4strokes are the same as far as what needs to be done on a maintenance schedule. For instance, a Vampire will need the timing chain adjusted at 5 hrs then checked again at 50hrs. This is a simple adjustment that you can do yourself. The valves will go 50 hrs before relaping. The valve guides are good for more than 300 hrs. The piston/rings 100 hrs, lower end bearings 300hrs.
The Tech-1 engine does not have a timing chain, it has gears so there is no adjustment.
Rebuilding the head in one of these engines compared to a Briggs is night and day. You do not have to worry about doing anything to the valve guides or seats because they are built for many hours of operation without getting loose or worn. You have to lap the seats, regrind the valve face, set the clearance and your good to go.We ran the class last year and we will have many more 4-stroke TAGS running this season so we are going to run a light and heavy class similar to what we did at the TAGUSA World Finals.
Blink
Are you around most weekend days… if so what time do you get there….I would like to talk to you about the 4 strokes. Hows next saturday?Tim
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