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The last I heard on this subject, Sonik had yet to submit their engine specs to TaG USA. It’s my understanding that these specs are required for rules making (tech specs, etc). It’s also my understanding that if these specs aren’t submitted to TaG USA by a certain date (Dec 1st comes to mind), the engine won’t be on the “approved” engine list for ’04 and would be ineligible for competition – at least under TaG USA rules.
I know of two teams that ran them last year, and at least 2 other parties preparing to run them for ’04.
If this engine doesn’t make the deadline, and is declared ineleigible, what do we do?
@Freezeman wrote:
Could that mean they would all become corner workers?
I’m sure anyone willing/able to work corners would be most welcome regardless of why.
However, if we were to follow TaG USA policies in regards to this motor (if the Sonik doesn’t get placed on the “approved” list), there may be be nothing for these folks to do, but work corners.
That would be a drag for them. The people I’ve talked to who are planning on running Soniks could be in for some trouble.
Chad,
Maybe a phone or email to TAGUSA would be appropriate, in order to get all the details, particulars, and deadlines. Then maybe contact those you know that are considering the sonic package in order enlighten them on the situation.
Loren
Thinking about this further, (usually a dangerous thing), it is my opinion that we should be as INCLUSIONARY as possible. If the sonik engine were not certified by TAGUSA, and if there are racers here that already have that engine, then we should find a way to INCLUDE them. I see no sense in turning away racers. The more the better. More racers, more competition, more fun, and more friends.
Loren
I’ll quote John Denman here. He’s one of the High Mukety-Mucks of TaG USA. This was posted on EKN on 11/18/03
To that end, as I mentioned we will still be maintaining the TAG Standards for 2004. I can say that unless those manufactures follow the requitrements to complete submissions, they will not be included. Currently the only motors that have progressed beyond probationary status are the Rotax, Biland, and Leopard. Those whom have been given probationary status (Italsistem, Vortex Rok, Sonik) will be removed from the qualified list in January, unless they choose to follow through on registering the specifications. We do not require any fees, only specifications.
The entire post can be read here: http://www.ekartingnews.com/viewtopic.php?t=20492&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
(about 1/2 way down the page)
That’s pretty plain and I don’t think JD needs to be contacted for clarification.
If the Sonik importer (ROK and Italsistem, too) don’t get off their duffs in the next month, their motors won’t be elligible for TaG USA competition. Seeing as we’ve adopted TaG USA rules, that may put the Sonik people in a bit of a bind.
The issue appears to be specification related. That’s important in two respects. One is to aid in the establishment of proper weighting for these engines, and technical specifications for tech inspections. Tech was one of our biggest Buggaboos last season and our people are nearly unamimous in wanting more and better teching at our races. If we can’t get that stuff for the Soniks, it follows that they couldn’t be easily or fairly weighted or teched. If that’s the case, do we still let them run?
I too believe in being as inclusive as possible, especially with the TaG classes. However we still have to be able to wieght them fairly, and we definitely need to tech them. If TaG USA can’t get specs for these motors, how are we here in Colorado gonna get them?
I don’t want to see anyone get left out in the cold, and I’m sure there is a solution to the problem (if there’s a problem at all). I guess m point is, if we want to do this thing right, and it’s my feeling that we do, we’ll need to get our ducks in a row here quickly. There’s a lot of work to be done.
@Loren wrote:
Thinking about this further, (usually a dangerous thing), it is my opinion that we should be as INCLUSIONARY as possible. If the sonik engine were not certified by TAGUSA, and if there are racers here that already have that engine, then we should find a way to INCLUDE them. I see no sense in turning away racers. The more the better. More racers, more competition, more fun, and more friends.
Loren
Chaz,
Now, perhaps you can understand the dilemma that I faced at this time last year when a certain Parilla Leopard racer wanted to be included in the IKF sanctioned program at CRE. At the time TaG USA didn’t even exist!
It was not that I didn’t want a certain racer or engine package to be involved at CRE in 2003……….CRE is sanctioned by IKF and the Parilla Leopard was not on the 2003 approved IKF engine list. The importer had not submitted the engine to IKF for homologation or approval which unfortunately left the Leopard racers out in the cold. The sanctioning body must have an engines technical specifications if they are to determine its eligibilty for competition and if they aren’t submitted then they don’t have the baseline data to approve of them. It is a definite benefit to the racer for the governing body to have those specifications.
As a track owner and regional co-ordinator I could not run engines or classes in IKF sanctioned Regional events. Up until 2003 ALL of CRE events were sanctioned Regional Points events.
CRE is going to offer a TaG class in 2004, as a local option class, to be governed strictly by TaG USA specifications.
Perhaps now you can understand that it wasn’t a personal issue…..I had IKF regulations and the IKF memberships interests to safeguard.George,
I think the whole truth is the Leepurd guys are afraid of the Sonik motor package. Those guys will try anything to stay out front!@Anonymous wrote:
Chaz,
Now, perhaps you can understand the dilemma that I faced at this time last year when a certain Parilla Leopard racer wanted to be included in the IKF sanctioned program at CRE. At the time TaG USA didn’t even exist!Well G,
In this particular case TaG USA wasn’t needed. A very good set of technical specifications for the engine were already in existance, provided by the IAME factory with a list to proper tech tools and their part numbers. The spec sheet was, at that time, as it is now, free of charge and downloadable from at least two sources via the web.
A child could have used that documentation available to create a passable set of competition rules for that motor.
It was not that I didn’t want a certain racer or engine package to be involved at CRE in 2003……….CRE is sanctioned by IKF and the Parilla Leopard was not on the 2003 approved IKF engine list.
I called the IKF main office for that “list” and was informed that no such thing, in fact, existed – at least not for an option class, which was the only way that motor, or any TaG motor at that time, could possibly compete in an IKF sanctioned event or series. The IKF rep I spoke with, went on to say that at that time there were two IKF regions set to run that engine as an option class. In addition, I was told that which engines were allowed in any region’s optional system were at the sole discretion of the Region Coordinator, provided the RC filed the appropriate paperwork with the national office. This was confirmed by subsequent conversations with a then-seated IKF Board Member
The importer had not submitted the engine to IKF for homologation or approval which unfortunately left the Leopard racers out in the cold.
As far as a national class goes, yes. A region option was quite possible.
The sanctioning body must have an engines technical specifications if they are to determine its eligibilty for competition and if they aren’t submitted then they don’t have the baseline data to approve of them. It is a definite benefit to the racer for the governing body to have those specifications.
The specifications for the Leopard were readily available and could have been implemented to create a region option class for that engine. As it turned out, TaG USA Standards were available well before our 2003 season started and could have easily been implemented as well.
Perhaps now you can understand that it wasn’t a personal issue…..I had IKF regulations and the IKF memberships interests to safeguard
Actually, I think it was. Perhaps not towards me personally, but I do think it was kinda personal.
But, that’s water under the bridge.
This whole thing speaks directly towards the problem of lack of specifications to allow governance within the class. To date, the the Sonik importer has yet to submit specs and there are no specs available anywhere that I’m aware of. This spells trouble and not just for all the people who want to run that motor. Lack of specs wiould make scrutineering difficult if not impossible. So what do you do? What do we do?
@Curt Kistler wrote:
George,
I think the whole truth is the Leepurd guys are afraid of the Sonik motor package. Those guys will try anything to stay out front!Doubtfull.
This “Leopard Guy” simply wants everything as fair as possible.
Ultimately, though, this is one guy won’t won’t get beat by a Sonik. I got beat by a couple traffic cones, and a condition of my birth. Put them together and there’s about a 99% certainty that I’ll never sit another kart again as long as I live.
I have nothing personal to gain in bringing this up. It won’t ever affect me personally. At this point I have no dog in this fight.
Right now my biggest fight is coming up with a good reason to not simply walk away from this whole frikken thing. It’s amazing what a good brush or two with your own mortality does to your perspective on things.
Chaz,
Apparently the Parilla Leopard racer in question IS STILL taking it personal inspite of the fact that HE now has to make the same determination about another racers motor package in HIS program and has made his position very clear on the Sonic for 04.
If you will pick up the 03 IKF rule book and go through the two cycle engine tech pages you will find a listing for ALL of the IKF approved two cycle engines as of November 02 and you WILL NOT find the Parilla Leopard. I’m sure that you follow the forums and if you will notice …..So. Cal is just now having to consider the TaG class issue so where was it last November ? ………and that is IN IKF land!!
……….and further more I suppose now that the TaG USA reps should be responsible for going to the Sonics website to download technical specifications for the manufactures product and not the manufacturer or national importer. Just another case of folks who don’t want to take responsibility for their own actions or lack there of!
I hope TaG USA acts as responsibly as you expected the IKF to act last season. If that is the case the Sonic engine WILL rule in 04!!The problem to the Sonik issue is that under the sonik website, they officially list the Sonik as a fun motor, no act of TaG implemented. The folks at TaG USA were generous enough to see the potential for the Sonik as a TaG specific engine, but w/o the manufacturer giving support to the program, it would be almost imposible to be able to govern the motor. The leopard and the biland were specific TaG motors (even though the biland was supposed to have a spec series) I would not be surprised if the sonik guys realize the issue and get it resolved due to an increase of interest into the motor itself, further more, my concern about the sonik is that just because it won the supernationals, does NOT deam it any differant from the other TaG packages, each motor has its areas of magic, and flaws, keep in mind that second was a Parilla, and thirld was a Biland (which led the race for a few laps) I belive that each TaG motor (if legalized) will be just as good as the next, in all the TaG races i have ever seen with a distinct variance in motor selection, each motor does something the other does not. The second race in GJ had proof that each motor was just as good as the next, a Leopard won both races as well as qualified first, a rotax qualified second only 3 hundreths off, a Biland had the fastest race time, A Sonik was in third for a while, i belive (not so sure) that senior was all rotax on the podium, and 2 bilands and 1 leopard on the JR podium. In the Masters race in Las Vegas, a Leopard won, with 3 consecutive bilands (i think) with a Colorado driver in fifth in a Sonik. No Rok’s or Italisistems competeded that i know of, a comer did, it was fast but did not finish in SR, Sr was as we all know, won by a Sonik, Parilla, Biland, Biland, and a Biland in top 5. I personally think that each TaG motor with the correct weight differential will be as competitive as the next becuase they all were designed as a purpose of low maintance and good power, next year will show (this being a personal prediction) that the driver and chassis will make the differnce in TaG accross the nation, not motor, people all over the world want tag to be up to the driver, not the engine, so you know that strides will be made to make that as possible as can be achieved.
George
Last year, you could have run the TaG class as a local option and still be IKF sanctioned track. That is the way it has been done for two years at several west coast tracks, in both region 7 and region 11. Do you want a list of the tracks that ran both IKF region 7 and 11 sanctioned regional races and also ran a TaG class of some sort for their local programs? While you are correct, it was not a national class, IKF is so open that basically you can run any type of class you want as a local option and maintain your IKF sanctioning and insurance. All you have to do is tell IKF what you want to do and they will give you blessing.
By the way, I have been a board member of TagUSA for well over a year. It did exist at this time last year and it did have rules in place well before the start of last season.
Please take the time to register your name on this board and do not post as a guest.
As for the statement that “TaG USA should download the specs for the Sonik off the Sonik website” there are no specs, that was what chaz was stating the whole time. I am not intending to get on anybody’s bad side, but if a true specification sheet did in fact exist, then Sonik would have absolutly no trouble with the motor in TaG.
For some insight into the sonik issue, I shall post the link to website with ALL availible information i can get off of that site. Even the CIK Homologation fiches do not directly include the VX125 ES so the company is looking at a possible absence from the USA scene in 04 (I hope not, its a hell of a motor to race against, many people own this and it would be unfair to have paid 2k for an illegal motor)
My 2centsDoug,
I didn’t realize that you had served this region as an IKF co-ordinator for the last four years and really knew what you are talking about. Please turn to your copy of the IKF Tech Manual, issued November 2002 to page 93,section 850 “Regional Class List” you will find the listing of all approved Regional classes; you won’t find the Parilla Leopard listed. I had , in fact, two requests for local option classes denied by the IKF board over the last two seasons. At this very time last year there was not an IKF class for the Parilla Leopard and just as the Sonic has not submitted technical specifications to TaG USA for approval or homologation for 2004, the Leopards specs had not been submitted to IKF. There were absolutely NO specifications by which to establish a local option class for what was at the time a new one engine class.
The late Tom Argy officially announced his formation of the Tag USA program mid- January of this year and unveiled the full program at the Kart Expo in Chicago in late February. Prior to these dates there were NO official announcements of any programs that were going to sanction the so called TaG class. In fact, Mr. Argy was still involved with SSC and the National Rotax Max Challenge as the national race director until at least late September of 2002 before he parted ways with the program. There was NO formal organization known as TaG USA last October or November.
I’m sure that you pay attention to the EKN forum and have noticed the most recent discussion regarding the formation of a TaG class in California just over the past summer. So.Cal (Region 7) has strongly been involved in the Rotax program for the two seasons. The TaG movement in California developed in NorCal (Region 11) just over the summer.
I would ask that you at least join IKF and familiarize yourself with our rules and regulations before you get on this forum and misinform others.
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