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Seems like the Pro Kart races are loved by the competitors who participate. If you follow or search some of the threads on the national forums, looks like they are doing a lot of things right.
I’ve shared onboard camera information with a racer in that series. He said the format is the best regional oppurtunity to race they have had in Ca. in his 15 years racing.
Might help resurrect the club series in Colorado as well. We were involved with Skusa as a series last year, maybe it could be a better partnership this time.
We usually go Friday for practice when we can, seems much more productive than controlled practice on Saturday. Too much time between sessions and conditions change making it hard to identify the impact of tuning any changes we make.
If it was a 5-6 race deal we could race some club races as well or a few select out of town races.
Would be worth looking at.
They do not run any junior classes in their series. I do not think that is the way grow the sport in our state. For the amount of karters in CA I would expect a larger turnout. We get the same turnout with 10% of the karters CA has.
Pro kart series would be in direct competion with the CSC series. All the hot shots would do the pro series and SOME CSC races.
Of course you could have the CSC change to the prokart series and would probably be a step up in organization, rules, governing body, etc.
I think Blinker is correct we would have:
*pro kart series
*CSC series
*Rotax Max series
*Club seriesmassive dilution of CO karting will lead to no growth.
But I do commend Curt having the guts to bring up a suggestion like this. Keep the discussion going. Nothing wrong with brainstorming.
I believe the CSC SHOULD switch to the Prokart Series.
Let the tracks try to be ‘all things to all people’ by offering the Briggs and Junior classes which the PK series lacks. Have a rotating schedule among the tracks where the Briggs motors are the first weekend of the month, juniors-the third, etc. I know this would require a couple of track owners to put aside some bitterness, but gee whiz guys, no one said you had to hold hands and prance happily thru the flowers..just agree on a dang schedule!
Smaller numbers of classes will equal more tracktime, bang for buck, etc. THAT is why PKC is successful; they quit trying to squeeze 39 classes into 12 hours. It is no one’s FAULT that the CSC tried to make everyone in the flippin world have their own class and race on a state (regional?) level. In fact, it is commendable; and I hope we all remember to thank the current organizational leadership. Now let’s offer constructive commentary on why the CSC should and should not switch. Democracy in action.
I am for the series having a ‘mountain region’ of the Prokart series because I drive a TaG kart and there is a place for my kart. I have never been to one of their races in california so obviously I have no first hand experience, BUT i haven’t read or heard a bad word…they must be doing something right.
Some will slam me for blabbing without knowing wtf I’m talking about because i haven’t been around racing that long. I’ve been reading this forum every day for 3 years. Maybe a fresh opinion isnt a bad thing.
Fewer classes/more track time. I say yes.
I find it interesting when people get on this forum and make a big deal out of the PKC series and how successful it is when the CSC gets more entries per race than PKC in a state that has 10 times the karters. How do you define successful? The CSC certainly is as successful as PKC. You want to eliminate the Junior classes so you get more track time, great, you would just eliminate 50+ entries so that you get 20 more laps on a race day BRILLIANT! Do you want to pay the $125 entry fee like they do? I do think that we do not need 4 125cc shifter classes and 3 80cc shifter classes but we combine classes anyway so I do not agree with your logic. If we went with the PKC format we would have much less than 100 entries from the get go. The main problem with the CSC is there are too many races, not too many classes. With 9 races in the series the club racing has suffered which we all knew before the season started. The grass is always greener on the other side, if you like the PKC series so much move to CA with the other 50 million minions. I think Colorado is one of the best states in the USA for anyone that races karts. You?re all spoiled rotten with all the tracks available and you should have no problem getting all the track time you can stand. There already is a place to run your TAG kart with the CSC and I don?t see Kirk Deasons name on any of the TAG results from this season so where are you coming from? If you want more laps try going to a CSC race and racing.
Brad,
The spirt and intent of this post is not to seperate what has been built by the CSC. It is simply an effort to establish a true regional race option that would give some of us, that have supported all Colorado tracks, another step up the ladder to find another level of racing without grinding on the Stars circuit. $$$$$
Just asking a simple question here and getting some different reasons why, or why not, bring something like the PKC to our region. You have to admit, and you did, that 15 classes is way too many.
The one common way to allow more track time for all classes would be to seperate the regional level racers from the club level racers. We did not pay $125.00 for 20 more laps. We paid $145.00 for tires, fuel, oil, transponder, pit, wrist bands, dinner, real trophies and approx. 100 more laps. Can’t even honestly tell you how many practice and race laps we got in. This also paid for all of the workers responsible for a safe event, tech, scoring, announcer, rescue and so on. I don’t know about other families, but speaking for our race budget, we got more bang for our bucks.
California has about 1600 registered kart racers compared to our 150. They have more options and more tracks than you can imagine. They also have their own set of problems and trouble makers just like us. Per capita, we are just about equal to them.
It’s not about CA vs CO. I just wanted to see if there is an interest out here. I am not going to move to CA. I already spent 22 of my 54 years there. CO is home sweat home, and we race karts.
We will be at the rest of the CSC races just like the first 5. Continue to support the CO karting community, families, tracks, shops and volunteer to do Greeley again if asked.
Let the other track owners speak up. We heard your opinion.
Thanks,
Curt—$125 CSC
-$65 entry
-$40 pit spot fee (for two)
-$20 pit pass (for two)
-long days
-too many classes
-no “real” leader
-Rules we can’t use—-$125 PKC
-possibly free pit spots
-National rules
-one leader
-home on sunday
-junior classes if we want
-chance for track owners to sit back and offer their track to an organization and sell parts at their shop. Without the hassle of running a race
~~PRICELESS~~AJ,
Lets try to compare apples to apples…
Please list the entry fee for a PKC…
Please list the fee for pit passes…
“Possibly free pit spaces”. ?
How many tires do you “have” to buy from PKC, or can you buy from your local shop? Do you “have to” buy anything else from the promoter and not your local shop?
National rules? I cant find anything on the SKUSA or PKC website or any other “National” seriers with the same rules. (I do know that the rules used here in Colorado do not stop anyone from racing Nationally)
Racing on Saturday does not shorten the time to race. All you have suggested is travelling more during the week away from work to have Sunday off. You know as well as I do, the prep time prior to a race takes more effort than loading the trailer and heading home after the race.
“Chance for Track owners to sit back and offer their track…”
I was hoping for “chance for kart shops and dealers to offer their karts, tuners and motors for us to race and sit back and watch…”I like Tom and have watched him work. However, he is desperate for SKUSA to start to grow again, but the ideas here are not new. It is just starting of the Pro Moto Tour all over again.
Instead of running the numbers from the “racers” cost, why don’t you put together the promoters cost and see if you can make the numbers work.Now, back to work for this weekend…
JimI like it keep brainstorming not arguing. Good points brought up on both sides.
Our CSC is highly sucessful when compared to ANY regional series in the country. We may well have THE most sucessful series in the country when compared to our population base. PKC has over well over 10,000,000 people in their population base. We have at best 1,500,000 in roughly the same geographical area. We are drawing around 50-60 racers in the classes PKC runs. If PKC was as sucessful in drawing from their base as we are from ours, they should have almost 350 entries at every race!
AS many have pointed out, PKC is very sucessful becasue they have no competition. What other regional series in SoCal even offers shifter classes? Region 7 doesn’t want them, they concentrate on junior classes.
On the surface racing on Saturday is attractive. However, all its does is push the practice day to Friday. Sorry guys, that’s a problem for me. While I have a kart related business, I need to work on Friday. I too am no fan of driving over Vail pass at 2:00am, ( a couple of years ago I found one of our racers on his side up there) but I need to work on Friday. A better solution is fewer classes so the day wraps up quicker.
PKC runs national rules? Outside of the PKC series, who runs their spec Honda rules? Absolutely no one. Our spec Honda rules are run in local/regional series from Florida to Washington and many, many places in between. Their ICC rules are the international rules put out by the CIK ( Cartel of Italian Kart manufacturers). Their TaG rules are basically TaG USA rules, same as ours. I would argue that we have a better set of national rules than they do.
But back to the question on 2007.
We need fewer classes. We all know the arguments here. Lets get’er done.
My suggestion.
ICC(385) and built Moto (375) combined.
Spec Honda shifter lite (375)
Spec Honda shifter heavy (410)
Tag Master
Tag Senior
Tag Junior
80 Junior shifter (our K2)
MiniMax
Kid KartsI would consider one more class to be between the kid karts and MinMax as a developmental class. In the long term, I would eliminate the K2 class.
The series needs to have fewer races. 5 races max. Once at each of the traditional and CSC supporting tracks, one temperary like Greeley or Steamboat. NO drops. 5 races is not too many to ask a racer to do if they want to compete for a regional championship.
On the organizational side of it I would like to see the same crew at each race. I have enjoyed having the same tech director at each race. It makes for consistant and fair tech. Each of the promotors could offer one or two persons for each race. For example, GJMS provided the race director, IMI provided the tech director, The Track provided the grid martial, Action Karting provided the head flager. This way we have the same consistant crew at each race. Instead of paying for 5 guys for one race, a promoter would pay for 1 guy for 5 races. The cost is the same, just spreads it out a bit over the season.
Curt, if you say you got all that for $145 then you are misleading people. On their web site is the following:
Entry fee $125
Transponder rental $20
Pitt pass $10
MG tires $180 per set
C-12 gas $55 for 5 gals with 1 liter oil
MS-98 $50 for 5 gals with 1 liter oil
60-80 laps on race day
8 classes
They also run in the rain and do not provide rain tiresCSC race:
Entry fee $65
Transponder rental $0
Pitt pass $8
MG tires $177 per set $165 each 5 sets
VP fuel $7.50-$8.50/gal
927 oil $13 1 liter
50-60 laps on race day
14 classesHow do you think things would work with the CSC races, club races and then a PKC series divided between 160 karters, it would not. Why would a track owner in Colorado rent their track to PKC and let them sell all the fuel, oil and tires, close their track for two days of kart rentals and further dilute the other races in the state. I don?t see how they could pay all their expenses and break even with 60-70 entries. How would it be another step up the ladder when it?s the same karters racing together? If you don?t consider the CSC a true regional race series that what is it?
Racing on Saturdays is out for me. I have work to do on Fridays and I consider myself blessed when (at times) I can take a friday off to test (like this friday!). If we go that way, I’ll club race at IMI and The Track.
The only thing I see wrong with CSC is too many classes. And again we’re rehashing a tired subject that no one has the “stones” to decide on. I understand and applaud (and I’m not picking on you just using you as an example) the Greg Johnson’s of the Briggs class but again, is it more fun racing against 4 or racing against 20? The classes that don’t have full participation need to go, period. They could sell their equipment to racers in other regions and “step up” and get compliant to our area. Ellie Mae’s in TaG this year. She stepped up, why can’t others? Is there a cost associated with the upward move? Absolutely.
I am NOT for a PKC sanction. Again why reinvent the wheel. I think we’ll see a well run race this weekend @ THE TRACK and lately all tracks have stepped up in their organization. Again, the delay of the day is amount of races, period.
Finally, why do you think SKUSA, PKC and other organizations are looking at us? $$$$. Let’s not become prostitutes now. Stay the course and get better, regaurdless of what Mr. Moore continues to say.
In closing: Saturday racing, bad. Sunday racing, good. CSC good, other alphabets, bad. Too many classes, bad. Condense classes, very good. And Doug’s idea of combining the shifters isn’t a bad idea. Spec Honda’s numbers will only get bigger and PRO ICC’s smaller…
Good discussion in a constructive and healthy way. :cheers:
I like Doug’s response. Now we are heading into the right direction. Cut down the classes, combine classes that run equal lap times and we are all home from GJ by 9PM.
Keep one thing in mind about the CSC rules however. Guess where they came from?
Brad, your right about the cost. My honest mistake at 11PM last night. The point I was trying to make was, all of the tires, fuel and oil were there for us when we arrived. We did pay for them, but it saved us from driving from one shop to another to stock up for another race.
The thought about regional racing goes back to my post a couple of months ago. I truley feel there needs to be three steps in karting. Club, Regional, and National. Just my opinion, and you know where that usually gets me.
Quote:I don?t see Kirk Deasons name on any of the TAG results from this season so where are you coming from? If you want more laps try going to a CSC race and racing.Quote:take is easy Brad, I am just offering a different opinion. I did run at Greeley and had a blast but am still recovering from the financial shock of my first kart, trailer, tools, etc and do not have the 500 bucks (roughly) per weekend of racing right now. I’m still having fun practising. Thanks for the encouragement and don’t get your panties in a wad if someone has a different opinion on here. :argueI’ve been reading about the conflicts, arguments and whining for a couple of years, it can’t hurt the matter to have one more opinion. Let’s continue this discussion in a positive light. :cheers:
Honestly, I agree with you, Brad…we Colorado karters ARE spoiled by many good tracks…When I read Curt’s post about including UTAH in the series, I immediately thought of MMP and their new track. THAT is what made me start thinking about expanding the series and thus PKC. I guess there is no reason the CSC couldn’t include MMP as a championship round or final round, etc.
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