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Eddy,
The majority of the racers do not even know all of the options. That is purpose of this meeting to introduce all of the possibilties. The discussion has just begun for most people in this group and it is to early to come to any conclusions.
On the Honda. We all know the Honda brand name is well know for quality. Having said that, I also have a customer from Toronto who recently pruchased a MiniMax chassis. We got to talking about the Honda they use up there and I asked him several questions about it. This customer’s son is a Canadian national champion in the class.
He told me that the racing was some of the most competitive they have in his area of Canada and the engines are very close. He also told me that you have to have a quality engine builder for they are not all created equal. Box stock, they vary greatly. Blueprinted, they are very close. He pays between $1,500 to $2,000 (candian) for his blueprints. They change out several parts in the valve train to make them dependable. The engines need to be freshened about every other month to maintain their edge.
They are switching to Rotax because the intial cost is about the same (including the Honda blueprint) but the maintainance is much lower. They plan to race mostly in this country this coming year as the competition is deeper down here. (Manufacturers Cup in Cadet, Yamaha Jr Sportsman, HPV Jr Sportsman, MiniMax)
From every one I talked with, many think the best choice would be the HPV. But since we have virtually no experience with it here, that option has never been discussed. Those who run it say you can get them blueprinted but its a waste of money and the engine just lasts all year. The clutch is supposedly bullet proof. I have no personal experience with it but I have several customers who run it (The Man Cup national champion (Nick Neri) in the class is one of my customers) His dad tells me its the cheapest motor he runs.
I only offer this for informational purposes only. I don’t really care which engine you guys pick. Please, just pick one. I remember the good ol’ days where we really only had one track and one class for juniors, Briggs flat head. The fields were hugh, I rebuilt the engines every week as I burned up 4 engines every weekend. I switched to shifters for two reasons, no tech ( I got real tired of leaving IMI every weekend at 9:00 or 10:00 PM every Sunday with my engines in a box) and much lower costs. (no need for re-builds). But then that got sideways too!
Give a racer a way to spend money and they will. Even if it dosen’t help them go faster.
Answering some questions:
Curt: ICC is dead perhaps due to Kyle Ray dominating the field but hey let’s consider a few facts here. 1) if you have to rebuild your engine or top end it every other race (I’m pulling numbers out my butt so don’t quote me please) then that is an expense. I see no spec Honda people doing that. 2) Kyle dominated TaG Senior and that field only grows. Ya think it might be because you can compete against someone knowing their engine’s the same as yours so if you’re getting waxed they are either a better driver, better tuned engine or better tuned chassis. You removed the engine question. 3) ICC pro = $$$ for an engine to be competitive. Please tell me Barry, Swedetech, Dave Harrold (sp) etc are cheap? Like I said, checkbook racing to a point to be competitive, right?
George: Step away from the crack pipe and biiiiiyatch slap Marion Barry sitting next to you! He’s giving you bad advice! In my observations of racing in many levels for it to truly be successful you have to have a dictator who looks out for the interests of the people whether they realize it or not! You mean to tell me F1 grew to the size it is now by Bernie thinking he’s gonna screw everyone and make money by serving HIS own purpose? The same could be said for Tony Hulman and Bill France. They followed their beliefs of what was right and you know what? EVERYONE GOT RICH. Remember when F1 was a sport where NO ONE made money? Eddie Jordan, Frank Williams and Ron Dennis are multi millionaires because of a benevolent dictator by the name of Bernie. DO THE RIGHT THING AND THE MONEY WILL FOLLOW. So yes, we do need a direction, vision and benevolent dictator.
Gentlemen: I don’t pretend to be an engineer/mechanic but I can walk in the shoes of a Newbie and thier family. What’s needed in Jr 1 is an engine that’s fairly inexpensive, easy to maintain and last and consistent from engine to engine. Solve that (or get as close as you can) and you (the track owners) will have the huge fields that line your pockets down the line. That is what this meeting this weekend is all about. It is not a bitch session to harp on what’s wrong it’s a meeting EARLIER than ever to fix the problem with some viable solutions. It’s also a meeting to tighten up what’s a little loose currently (parc ferme of kid class engines to point out one thing, IMO)
In closing, I’ve seen the numbers of responses towards our needs via email, website postings and responses to surveys. The actual participation is pathetic. So, don’t get all shortsighted and think just because 5 people responded at a meeting or less than 34 responded to a survey that this is what the majority want. Don’t lose focus and set aside your hidden agendas, period. Do what’s right, do what your experience tells you is correct. LEAD. This meeting will be productive if we all keep that in mind.
:cheers:
34. Taylor Bezanson …….. No.
Great post Mike………….This meeting is NOT a Bitch session! We are not trying to overthrow the CSC, any track, kart shop owner ect. The intent is to get together and discuss how to make karting grow.
Mikey :cheers:
It is kind of hard to put things into words on the forum, and come across with the intended tone. I think everyone here is throwing out ideas, and that is great. We really all have the same goal in mind, so should try to keep that in mind throughout.
Scott, it may have been helpful to divide the names list further, into those who you know have the equipment, those who want the K80, those who agree to go with whatever class is decided for that age group, those who are in that age group, etc. Personally, we would really rather NOT have to own Comer 80s.
I would throw out another idea…. TaG Cadet…. take a look. It should look pretty good in many of the criteria areas. TaGUSA rules that we already use for our successful TaG programs with Jr, Sr, and Masters. If we want a single engine class, then look at the various TaG Cadet motors for some choices. Some of the regions around us, TX, OK, run similar programs. TaG is the way of the future, right, so why not look ahead.
The Mini Max has been great for us, but it doesn?t fit the bill for the younger kids moving out of Kid Karts.
Remember, this is still brainstorming, I am just putting some more food for thought out there!
:peaceBlink,
I understand the commercial quality of Honda engines, I was using them in a commercial karting operation ten years before IMI was opened. I also have used the boxstock Comer K 80, sealed in our Junior program over the past four years and have noticed that the only difference in competiton has been the parents ability to tune the carburetor and the drivers experience and level of talent. The Comer K80 retails for $795.00, with the clutch included and if reasonably maintained will last a full season without rebuilding or even doing a top end. Blueprinting them adds an additional $700.00 to 1,000.00 to bring them to WKA/IKF national standards. Neither the WKA or IKF tech manuals requires that the engines be blueprinted to compete at any level. Blueprinting doesn’t make an 8 to 11 year old racer a better driver.The move to Honda’s in the Junior program would just serve to further isolate Colorado karters from national competiton unless you plan to go to Canada. When in Rome do as the Romans……..fortunately or unfortunately Honda engines are not in competition in the United States. The Comer K 80 is the overwhelming choice in national competition.
Mike, we are trying to have a civil discussion about karting issues. Nothing in my nearly 30 years of karting experience has anything to do with crack use. You can be a benevolent dictator when you are the only one in power and have the only widget……once again we NOW have five kart tracks, an in state racing series and a Grand Prix committee and lots of confusion. The dictator doesn’t own or have power over all of the states karting industry…..the Hulman, George, France families or Bernie E. have nothing to do with Colorado karting.
Once again it appears that the vast majority of the Junior I families and others are asking for a one engine class, with written rules, simplicity and clarity. There are going to be a few caught in the minority but bite the bullet now and the class will grow and thrive statewide. As you said ” You can please some……..but you can’t please all” The racers will benefit and so will the businesses that support them.
@George Durdin wrote:
Mike, we are trying to have a civil discussion about karting issues. Nothing in my nearly 30 years of karting experience has anything to do with crack use. You can be a benevolent dictator when you are the only one in power and have the only widget……once again we NOW have five kart tracks, an in state racing series and a Grand Prix committee and lots of confusion. The dictator doesn’t own or have power over all of the states karting industry…..the Hulman, George, France families or Bernie E. have nothing to do with Colorado karting.
Once again it appears that the vast majority of the Junior I families and others are asking for a one engine class, with written rules, simplicity and clarity. There are going to be a few caught in the minority but bite the bullet now and the class will grow and thrive statewide. As you said ” You can please some……..but you can’t please all” The racers will benefit and so will the businesses that support them.
Okay so I was being a smart arse (E=MC squared 8) )
But you DO see the picture with your post about pleasing all. I’m just trying to set the stage and expectation level here. Throw out all the comments and let’s discuss them, debate their merits etc. That’s what the forum’s about and allows us to lead up to the meeting with a loose agenda of what’s important going in.
I (still) back my feelings about a dictator however. A leader, director, figurehead who has vision and is thinking about the improvement of this karting passion many of us have. Not everyone’s going to go away happy but if we can hammer out some rules, classes, motors etc then people will bend and conform. Again, I think we’d all like to see big fields, competition and comeradery (sp?) at the end of the day.
Notice Bernie didn’t own but ONE team and nothing else. He did things for all. That’s what a (GOOD) dictator does. Kinda like Paul Tagliabue. All parties involved made serious dough when he was on the top wrung of the ladder. Does that put it in a better light?
I’m Mike Jansen and I approve this post
@Mike Jansen wrote:
Answering some questions:
Curt: ICC is dead perhaps due to Kyle Ray dominating the field but hey let’s consider a few facts here. 1) if you have to rebuild your engine or top end it every other race (I’m pulling numbers out my butt so don’t quote me please) then that is an expense. I see no spec Honda people doing that. 2) Kyle dominated TaG Senior and that field only grows. Ya think it might be because you can compete against someone knowing their engine’s the same as yours so if you’re getting waxed they are either a better driver, better tuned engine or better tuned chassis. You removed the engine question. 3) ICC pro = $$$ for an engine to be competitive. Please tell me Barry, Swedetech, Dave Harrold (sp) etc are cheap? Like I said, checkbook racing to a point to be competitive, right?
:cheers:
My K Ray comment was pure comic relief, at least it made me laugh. However, I do know of a 125 spec team that nuked at least three motors in 2006, and another that does top end’s every race.
My cost to rebuild a bottom end is $75.00 more than the 80 was. We are still on the original bottom end on the DDR, and we went thru less pistons this year than we ever did in the 80. They are not that expensive to run when you learn how to tune them and when to downshift.
Kyle and Matt could switch karts at any time and Kyle will still check out on him. He is a very good driver at the top of his game and works harder than anyone at staying there. We have been chasing him going back to the 60 shifter days and love every minute of it.
The PRO ICC class is not dead. We will have at least 8 running in it next year which is still more than a few other classes I won’t mention.We don’t mind getting waxed in our class when it’s done by friends. We’ll be back for more Ray and Elliott abuse, and look forward to racing the next wave of challengers.
I have been checking the site every day since the season ended and have not seen any discussion regarding JR1. I miss one day and look what happens.
My vote is NO, I will not be using a K80 for our kart, It would obviously require a new or old engine and chassis if the Jr1 K80 rules apply since my chassis is full size not cadet. If I am to invest in anything now it would be for 2 years down the road for JR TAG, not another motor to store in my garage after one year. I think that the one engine idea would be better “phased in” somehow so that the new in class will buy for the future and the existing drivers would leave after changing class. Eventually there would be one engine. I will be running the animal for 2007 if there are tracks that will let us.
Also, I think that the majority of the JR1 class have no intention of going national and don’t care what the other areas of the country are running. They just want to run races with friends and have a good time. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I agree with Mike, stock animal, straight timing key and stock cam, no cheater cams. Pull starter. Allow a $60 billet rod for reliablity, it will stop making HP after 6000 rpm anyway with stock timing and no big holes in the block. Save $$$ JMHO
@wyattep wrote:
I ran Briggs back east for 2 years= competetive Animal $1350.00 new at best.
That animal was not JR1 stock, was it?
I suggest a debate. For the honda motor or for the comer or for the briggs motor or for the gazelle. Let the debators present their sides for the advantages or dis-advantages for each and every motor. One person on the comer side, one person on the honda side(which I would volunteer to be), one person on the briggs side and one person on the gazelle side. No mudslinging just a debate on motors!
Thanks
Jay
My thoughts:
First wyattep, my son is the one who won the Animal class this year and you, or anyone else for that matter, can purchase my son?s best animal motor for $500 and his second best for $450. Conner and I have raced Comer 50?s, 80?s and the Animal, and I will tell you in my bias opinion: the Animal was by far the cheapest and easiest motor we have ran to date. I like them.
I attended the first Jr. 1 meeting, hoping that we could unite and move forward, and the only common theme every parent mentioned was cost. After that, unfortunately it became very apparent to me, that there was an agenda towards Comer 80?s. Anyway, this debate at best should be driven by what I have heard every parent express, cost and simplicity or it becomes a Ford is better than a Chevy and Dodge debate. I believe this class needs someone to pick ONE motor PERIOD.
My vote is no for the Comer and perhaps even a yes vote for Brad making the finally sole decision for this class if it has to come to that. Isn?t he making the most sense suggesting a cheap, competitive, reliable well know engine package?? Frankly, I too do not care what they do Nationally since cost doesn’t seem to be much of a factor at that level.
Finally, I realize that my vote doesn?t really matter since we are not racing in this class again.Now what is important to me is what is the best chassis for a small driver in the TAG Jr class (Birel, Shockwave, Arrow)? Second question, what is going to be the motor of choice in that class next year (Leopard or Vampire)?
:idn:
All
Points well taken.
Suggestions:
1. Run the Animal or Honda or what ever the main players who have Jr 1 drivers want at the club events. This could keep cost manageable for entry level players. Track owners continue to manage their club events based on their customers wants and needs. No one is forced to shelve an engine for 07.
2. Run a Jr 1 class structure in the CSC that resembles a major sanctioning body (let the parents/players decide). The CSC appears to be the next level intra-state series. Most resembles regional and or national events. A series for those who plan to run a limited or full time national tour can hone their skills and play when not on the road.
See you all at the meeting. Yes, keep an open mind, supports a healthy productive process. Good Group Dynamics!!!!
Again, many thanks to Curt and Rusty and those behind the scenes for making this happen.
Respectfully
Eddy
Meek Motorsports, LLC
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