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@larry toby wrote:
(And how many Jr Leopards are stock?).
All of them. As are the Tag senior engines. I know ours is stock. The head has not been cut. The cylinder is a delivered from IAMI, the cases and crank are all bone stock. The reeds are from IAMI and carb is stock with only the popoff reset from stock. The pipe/silencer has not even been repacked.
Larry, I think you are putting too much emphasis on the engine and not enough on the driver. Greg won not because of his motor, but because of this driving experience and ability. He has driven in the rain many times, in Oregon, in Utah, in California, in Oklahoma, in Florida, in Indiana. I think that had more to do with his win than his Leopard.
There were Leopards, Motri and Bilands in Tag Masters but Rotax engines were first and second. Again, it was the driver who won, not the engine.
That is the great thing about rain racing. It is up to the driver. All the motor in the world is worthless in the rain. The fast guys were fast and the slow guys were slow. The motor had nothing to to do with who won. I give all the credit for race wins yesterday to the drivers and their teams for putting them in a position to win.
Doug,
Just in case you were serious, I agree that the driver makes the biggest difference. And, yes, as usual, the fast guys were fast and the slow guys were slow.
But suggesting that engines do not make a difference is naive. Surely you don?t think people have their engines blueprinted or sent off to big name builders just because they have extra money to spend? Surely you don?t think a Jr Rotax with about 18 horsepower makes no difference against a Jr Leopard with about 24 horsepower? There is no question that in Tag racing the engine plays a significant role. Most of the time it is not enough of a difference to overcome driver talent but sometimes it is. That is why we enjoy the sealed Rotax class so much. The engine is less of a factor, the racing is closer and, therefore, the event is more fun. In the end, that is what we want ? more fun.
Larry
I was very serious. You have made insinuations that “blueprinting” of engines in the Tag Jr class has somehow messed up the racing and that certain racers have won because of “blueprinting”.
Its time to get this out into the open and put to bed. Because of the rules, there are very few things a builder, not matter what his name, can do to the engine.
They can not machine ports, head configuration, cranks and rods, intake track, carburater, reed cage, crank case halves. So what is it they can do.
First, they make sure the piston to cylinder bore clearance is correct. To aid this process, IAMI makes 20 different pistons ranging in size from 2.1259 to 2.1360. Some builder like .004 clearance, some like .006.
Secondly, they can true the crank. What some don’t know is that just overtightening the chain can cause the crank to go out of true. Too tight can bend the crank half. I know, I’ve done it.
Third, they can set the popoff pressure on the carb. This is something that every tuner can do and will change on the carb at the race.
That’s it. This all that can be changed. Any other modifications, machining, grinding, polishing, balancing, is illegal by our rules.
But in fact, these are items I have listed should be done whenever the engine is rebuilt. Racer’s will spend money, some wisely, some foolishly. Money spent with a big name builder is often money spent foolishly in these spec classes.
If you are suggesting that some people are running illegal engines, I would love to know more. Name names of those who are doing it. If you are suggesting that engines that have had a quality rebuild are somehow outside your concept of stock, then I strongly disagree. They are stock in every sense of the word. Both in intent and in fact.
Doug,
I?m not sure what has you wound up. :idn: I?m having a hard time figuring out where you are coming from.
First, I have not made any insinuations. If you will re-read my post you will note how I explained that different engines work differently and how that can lead to great racing like we saw yesterday. I have nothing but praise about how the racing went yesterday. However, for you to imply that all engines are equal and do not make a difference is ridiculous. I doubt anyone at Tag USA ever intended to make all engines equal but rather to try and level the playing field through weights and other restrictions. It is a nice concept but will never be perfect. I gladly accept that. When people go beyond stock engines (blueprinting, etc.) they upset the balance that Tag USA attempted to reach. If that came through in my post than fine but it was never a main point.
Secondly, I have not stated or implied that ?blueprinting? engines has ?messed up the racing.? Again, that was not one of the points of my post but certainly is a topic worthy of discussion. I simply suggested, in parenthesis, that not all motors are stock, period. Nothing more. I can not even begin to believe why you are stating that it doesn?t happen (?All of the engines were stock?) or that it doesn?t make a difference. A couple of cases come to mind that prove otherwise.
1.) You have stated yourself on this and other forums many times how you think a Rotax is a better choice at some tracks and not as good a choice on other tracks based on the track configuration. Again, it goes without saying. 2.) Greg told me point blank how you did all you could do to get his Leopard up to speed in OK at the Stars race and couldn?t. You switched to Zippie?s spare Leopard and immediately gained a half second. The point is simple ? engines do make a difference! Obviously, there are many other factors when it comes to racing. 3.) Several times you have asked me to bring my Rotax engine in so you can machine the cases so the main bearings will slide back and forth so the crank can spin more freely and get more RPM and, therfore, more speed. You showed me a couple of the engines you have done that to. I?ve made no judgment or statement about that activity but have been unwilling to do that because I, personally, find that to be against the spirit and intent of sealed engine racing. Just, maybe, that is why you guys blow up engines so frequently (last two weekends if I remember correctly) and I?m still on my original Rotax engine (one ring change in 3 years and dozens of races).
If you want to discuss this further and in more detail than let?s start a new post. It is worthy of discussion. However, your tangent has nothing to do with my original post.
Remember to keep it FUN. :cheers:
Greg’s engine in OK had a bent crank. That is why it was down on power. You know, a bent crank will prevent a motor from reving and ours wouldn’t rev. That is why we were down a 1/2 second. Zip’s engine was NOT blueprinted. It just happened not to have anything wrong with it like my engine.
You are flat out a liar if you say that I suggested, implied or did machine work in a Rotax case to get a slip fit crank. Larry, you are wrong and I demand an imediate retraction. I do nothing with Rotax engines that is not within complete and full compliance of the rules or the intent of the rules. One of my engines, the one that WON the Rotax Grands last year was torn completely to the bottom end. Not a single bolt was left in it. Every part, fit, and tolerance was inspected by none other than Rotax National tech director Scott Evens. It passed. Every engine I build will pass the most stringent tech Rotax can dish out.
I have lost two engines in the past two weeks. One had a crank in it that was over 3 years old. I tried to get too much time out of it and it failed. The other engine I ran too lean. It stuck. That’s what engines do when they run too lean. They stick. It’s my own fault, nothing more sinister than that. You have implied in your post that since I have had motor troubles, then I must be doing somthing illegal or questionable with them to cause the problems. I take great exception to that.
Larry, you hide behind this veil of FUN but in reality, everyone who beats you is a cheater in your mind. You have implied it repeatedly over the past year. You imply it in your post here. You imply that Jesse Runkle won because of his motor. Take a look at Mylaps. For those of us who own a transponder, we can get a break down by lap for each racer. If you look at that, Jesse Runkle drove the most consistant laps of any racer in Tag Junior. That is why he won. NOT because of his motor. If you look at Greg’s lap times, he put together a string of laps no one could match. His fastest lap was his last. He did a stretch of laps that didn’t vary .1 of a second. NO ONE came close to that level of consistancy. That is why he won. The motor on his kart was a coblied up bunch of junk parts we scraped together.
I for one have had enough of it. It is guys like you who put so much emphasis on the motor, who go around making false statements about the character of racer’s engine package that give new racers the impression that they must cheat to win because karting is full of cheaters. If anything, the opposite is true. It is guys like you who cause more trouble for this sport than it deserves.
I challenge you again, who is cheating? Who’s engine package does not comply with the rules. Mine? Zip’s? Runkle’s? Who do you want to send it to for a complete inspection? I will send our motors to anyone in the country you pick for inspection. I will pay for the costs. It’s time to put a stop to your inuendo. It is guys like you who are hurting our sport.
Wow! I?m surprised and shocked. You continue to put words in my mouth that are so far off base I must assume you have some hidden agenda. For your sake, I hope this is not about us showing up at Bandimere with an Intrepid because the new Jr Vampire engine would not fit in our Shockwave chassis.
Please try to put aside what ever is motivating you long enough to read my words ? not what you think I said, implied, or insinuated. Not what you want to hear.
One more time, read my post! I never said anyone cheated. I never even used the word. I never insinuated such or made a single accusation. What I said was how really awesome the racing was and, in particular, how Jesse Toby loved racing with Jesse Runkle. We had fun and we got beat. We were the first to congratulate Jesse Runkle. He drove the wheels off his kart. We are so happy for him. I?ve never once suggested in any way, shape or form that he cheated. We love to race with Runkle. Sometimes he beats us, sometimes we beat him. We get beat all the time and never felt, with only a single exception, that anyone who ever beat us was a cheater. Doug, you are so far off base that, frankly, I?m concerned about you.
Again, re-read my post. My message was about the Vampire engine. There are some who want us to race in a separate four stroke Jr Tag class. That would automatically give us a championship but that is not what we want. We love the competition and want to race against the two strokes. I?ll never know how you got off on this tangent about cheaters.
For you to call me a liar to cover up your behavior is way over the top. I have no motivation to do anything but tell the truth. What is your motivation? Integrity is not one of them. For you to blatantly lie on this public forum and call me a liar with absolutely no basis is scummy.
At the first IMI/The Track club event you came over and talked to us. We had our Rotax in our CRG chassis. Our Leopard was in the shockwave chassis. You strongly suggested to us that we put the Rotax in the Shockwave chassis. After we said we would you said you would rebuild the engine to get more RPM and speed. You said you had a process that allowed the crank to turn more freely in the cases. I don?t remember the details of how you said you did that but you had me come over to Greg?s kart so you could show me how freely the crank moved back and forth in the cases. You said, ?It eats pistons but it sure is fast.? It blows me away that you would now deny this and try to turn it around on me. I have no reason to lie. I have no vendetta or any kind of ill will toward you. I have supported you, your company and your products. What has driven you off the deep end?
For you to call me a liar to cover up your lies is lower than low. You have lost my respect.
Best of luck,
LarryLarry
Lets boil this down and cut through the BS. Your orginal post was a veiled attempt to show that the Vampire should be allowed to run in the junior class. Your entire post is about the motor. Its in your title, it is the very heart of your post.
The motor is the last thing of importance. You make the comment about blueprinted engines, you make this statment.
(And how many Jr Leopards are stock?)
I ask you to name who is running non-stock engines, you don’t respond. If you can’t tell us who is running non-stock engines, then why did you put it in your post? Instead, you respond with.
Surely you don?t think people have their engines blueprinted or sent off to big name builders just because they have extra money to spend? Surely you don?t think a Jr Rotax with about 18 horsepower makes no difference against a Jr Leopard with about 24 horsepower? There is no question that in Tag racing the engine plays a significant role. Most of the time it is not enough of a difference to overcome driver talent but sometimes it is.
I asked you to tell us who is running blueprinted engines. Not about the Rotax vs the Leopard. Why can’t you answer the question? Is it because you don’t know? Then why bring it up in the first place?
Larry , you’re an intellegent, educated man. You know very well the english language has many nuances, many implications, many hidden meanings. When you make the above stament “And how many Jr Leopards are stock?”, That statement strongly suggests that many of the engines in Tag Junior are not stock. When I ask you to give us details, you attack me personally. A personal attack is a typical response from an individual who has lost his argument or doesn’t have the facts to back his position.
This statement is from you;
….bring my Rotax engine in so you can machine the cases so the main bearings will slide back and forth so the crank can spin more freely and get more RPM and, therfore, more speed.
This statement is complelety, totaly false. It is a lie. I do not machine the cases when I rebuild Rotax engines. When I call you on this lie, you try to slip out of this with this statement;
I don?t remember the details of how you said you did that but you had me come over to Greg?s kart so you could show me how freely the crank moved back and forth in the cases.
Now you don’t remember. First you lie, then you don’t remember. Have you been watching the congressional hearings on the attorney general? If you didn’t know, then why bring it up in the first place?
Did you know that some engines come from Rotax that the crank slips in the cases and some do not? Do you know why that is? The entire section of your post strongly suggests that I am doing illegal, that I am some how cheating. You may not have said the words exactly, but you certainly suggested it.
I?ve made no judgment or statement about that activity but have been unwilling to do that because I, personally, find that to be against the spirit and intent of sealed engine racing.
The first part of this statement contradicts the second part. At first you say, “I’ve made no judgment…”, then you say ” …I personally, find that to be against the spirit and intent of sealed engine racing.” Which is it Larry? You can’t have it both ways.
You may not have used the word cheat, but I don’t know how you would interperate this statement other than, “I think your cheating”. I will put it in here again, some cranks come from Rotax with a slip fit in the case, some do not. If I assemble yours so that it slips in the case, how on earth is that outside of the intent of sealed engine racing? If they come from Rotax that way, and I put it back together as Rotax intended, how its that outside the intent and spirit? I’m telling you that something is wrong with your engine. You came to me telling me that something was wrong with your engine, that it just wasn’t running that well. And now you’re trying to some how turn that into I’m doing somthing outside the intent of the rules. I take very strong offense to that suggestion.
But lets go back to your first contention, non-stock engines in the Tag Junior class.
I have not stated or implied that ?blueprinting? engines has ?messed up the racing.? Again, that was not one of the points of my post but certainly is a topic worthy of discussion. I simply suggested, in parenthesis, that not all motors are stock, period. Nothing more. I can not even begin to believe why you are stating that it doesn?t happen (?All of the engines were stock?) or that it doesn?t make a difference. A couple of cases come to mind that prove otherwise.
Oh yes you have suggested it. It has been a recuring theame of your’s since your Rodney King post of “Why we can’t all just have fun?” Did you forget this statement from October 10, 2006?
David Zippie started the season with a Leopard and earned some third place podium finishes. For the last three races he had his Leopard blueprinted and highly prepped. It led to his first win in his rookie season.
This statement was totaly false. His motor was not blueprinted and highly prepped. This statement is a lie. The motor did not lead to his first win. He did it with hard work, with talent. Ever since that post, you have consistantly and systematically tried to undermine the efforts and hard work of certain racers and all the while you hide behind your;
Remember to keep it FUN. cheers
Larry, you’re a hypocrite. The sad thing, is, you can’t see it. It is you who’s not having any fun, not the rest of us.
Doug,
This is interesting.
I was more than surprised to find out that there are Rotax service centers that think the rules allow them to polish the crankshaft on a Rotax. I do not buy the story that some engines have a loose fit and some don’t. I am sure some cranks do have a loose fit after they have been worked on by some Rotax service centers. The engines are to be run right out of the box with no modifications, right? Isn’t that the premise of the whole Rotax program? When you replace parts you are not allowed to modify them in any way, right? The bearing surface is ground and if they can’t hold a tenth then they should not be grinding crankshafts. If you read the Rotax engine tech rules on page 1 it clearly states that the engine or any of its ancillaries can not be modified in any way. Polishing the crank shaft is a blueprinting operation in my book. It is removing metal any way you look at it. Polishing the crank will make a difference on how the engine runs. What other modifications are they doing to the engines beyond polishing the crank that they think is legal? Is it ok to polish a Leopard, Vortex, Comer, Motori, etc… crank? I don’t think so. It would be interesting to measure a batch of Rotax cranks to see if they vary that much. Rotax builds thousands of engines a year and I do not believe they can not hold tolerance on a grinding operation. If you base a program on everything being equal then why is there a measurable difference on the most expensive part of the engine that is one of the few parts that are precision and the important surfaces are ground? :bs:
Neither the engine nor any of its ancillaries may be modified in any way. ?Modified? is defined as any change in form, content or function that represents a condition of difference from that originally designed. This is to include the addition and/or omission of parts and/or material from the engine package assembly unless specifically allowed within these rules. The adjustment of elements specifically designed for that purpose shall not be classified as modifications, i.e. carburetor and exhaust adjustment screws.
Rotax racing, fair and equal for everyone? I don’t think so now!
Doug,
I strongly recommend you get a grip on yourself. I think you will look back on this post months from now and see how silly you are being.
You continue to put words in my mouth that are not there. You continue to suggest that you, and not me, know what I meant to say. You continue to tell me what my veiled attempts are. You continue to state I am making insinuations and using innuendo to make a point that only you can see and want to discuss. You continue to divert the discussion away from the intent of my original post. Why can you not take a discussion at face value? Why do you think there is something sinister about what other people are saying? I feel sorry for you.
I keep trying to follow you on the topics you introduce and your agenda even though they have nothing to do with my post. When I boil it all down it seems to me that you are reacting to one simple, off topic, question I put in my post, ?how many Jr Leopards are stock?? Contrary to what you repeatedly say, it was not a statement but a question. Don?t read more into it than is there!
I?ve taken responsibility for my post being poorly written and not focused sharply. I made an attempt this morning to be more precise with a new post. Still, your responses to my post are not excusable.
When I try to cut through all the BS the only thing that makes sense to me is that you are bent out of shape because we raced an Intrepid last weekend instead of a Shockwave. That is really petty. During the trophy presentation you were still trying to get me to commit to putting the Jr Vampire on the Shockwave chassis. You told me how Brad did a great job modifying one of your chassis to get the Vampire to fit and how you would like me to do the same. I was non-committal. I am now. I will not use a Shockwave chassis or components again.
Doug, you are the hypocrite, the LIAR and a manipulator. The sad thing is you do see it and seem to think it is okay to be that way. As I said above, I feel sorry for you. BTW, I am very happy and having lots of fun.
Blink
It has nothing to do with polishing, honing, or grinding. All of which are illegal. It has to do with the trueness of the crank. Rotax cranks from the factory are usually between .002 to .0045 out of true. The Rotax service manual I have to work to states that I need to set them at .001 max. All we are doing is cleaning them and trueing the crank to Rotax specifications. Period. No grinding, no polishing, no machining, no honing, no matching or sorting parts.
Sometimes a factory crank is better than .002. Those cranks will slip in the bearings. Cranks that are .004, will not. It’s nothing sinister, nothing illeagl, nothing outside of the intent. In fact, we are doing nothing more than setting them up exactly to the specifications set for by Rotax.
You can not polish, grind, machine, hone any crank or bearing in any Tag class. So why are we having this discusion?
When you rebuild your Vampire or Bilands, dont you have a specification on trueness of the crank? Do you not true them when you rebuild them?
I will put it in here again, some cranks come from Rotax with a slip fit in the case, some do not.
Slip fitting a crank is clearancing the crankshaft to fit the bearings so it can be installed without force. Aligning the crankshaft is truing the crank. Two different animals.
Question is, coming from the factory, does both sides of the crankshaft of a Rotax engine slide into each bearing without force? What is the factory clearance?
Yes they do. Both crank halfs slip into to their respective bearings. The bearing is 30mm(1.1811 +.0002). A new crank I just measured is 29.98 (1.1807) So you can see, the crank will have a minumum clearance of .0004 and as much as .0006. Not alot but enough for a slip fit. As you can see, if the crank is not true, it won’t slip once installed. If it is true, it will slip once installed. The minimun size on the crank bearing surface before replacement is 29.96 (1.1795). As you can see, a normal crank, under normal conditions can wear up to .0011 from new before Rotax recommends replacement. This is after normal use, not a polish it too number.
Rotax puts anti-sieze on the outboard crank half, not on the inboard. If the crank is true, it will slip back and forth, if not, it won’t. Because of the lack of anti-sieze, the inboard bearing often sticks over time.
A rebuilder in Florida was polishing the crank to achieve the slip. They lost their certification. We do not polish. We only true the crank then carefully assemble it into the bearings add a spot of anti-sieze so that it won’t seize under hard use. Viola, slip fit.
There, I let the secret out of the bag. Dissapointed?
No problem Doug. You just need to be careful when using the term slip fit. If the crank is out of true it will get tight when the cases are pushed on the alignment pins. I was not sure if Rotax had one side that was a press fit like many enignes and you were polishing the crank to get it to slip. I would hope that Rotax could get a crank closer than .004, even .001 is more than twice my tolerance when truing a crank. I try to get them to .0002-.0003 if it is a good crank.
Hey guys,
Am I screwing up just buying the next engine in line? We did not pick through motors to find the best one or take it apart to extract the most out of it. Is that what it is going to take to run up front in the State or Rotax series?
Our Icc motors were from Swedetech and were tweaked to knifes edge to be competitive. (at a very significant cost, a cost that chased a lot of racers away from the Icc packages and some out of karting all together) I was hoping to be able to be competitve on a box stock Rotax motor but it looks like some tweaking may be essential to be up front. The 1st Rotax that we ran for 3 years and last years Motori both were taken out of the box, broken in and put into service.
Last season we joined a Race Team (not a shop) that put a lot of effort into chassis and driver development and the Team culture of sharing information. We were at every race 1-2 days prior to the event trying different tuning combinations with carb and chassis, analyzing data and getting our drivers laps on that circuit. I watched Vince Mandarino tuning Lorenzo’s carb and it changed the way I look at tuning. We had drivers meetings, we compared segment performance and raised our Teams game. Yet it was the motor. It was considered too fast and went the opposite of what Tag Usa offered for our particular package. I really don’t understand. I see a lot of very highly regarded industry people state it’s much more chassis and driver than motor. Yet builders are pulling every last drop out of spec motors to get an edge. And our motori had an unfair advantage? Is it driver or motor? Several of the races Roman did well in last year, we did not set fast race lap but our chassis stayed consistent for 20 laps, Roman ran 2 classes and got twice the race day seat time and we got hundreds of laps (in many cases) before the event as I mentioned above.
I’m over the Motori thing. It is a losing battle. It’s the motor thats fast, not our program.
But.
Last weekend we had a very good tune up on our motor / chassis (a frayed throttle cable that would not allow a full return to idle but nothing significant) and we qualified 5th about 2.5 seconds off pole? Ronnie had a great effort and I’m proud of him. He is a hero to me. At that pace he could have lapped p-2 by the end of the 20 lap race! If our Motori would have been 2.36 seconds faster than the #2 qualifier? And capable to lap p-2 by the end of a 20 lap race. Then what?
Pos No.
Name Best Tm In Lap Best Spd (Km/h) Diff Gap Laps1 47 Ron Reed 46.412 6 48.867 6 –
2 84 J Mark Krivanek 48.781 7 46.494 2.369 2.369 11 –
3 17 Mike Price 48.807 5 46.469 2.395 0.026 10 –
4 7 Gunter DeSanti 48.845 9 46.433 2.433 0.038 11 –
5 7x Roman Gutierrez 49.071 3 46.219 2.659 0.226 4 –
6 141 Tom Dennin 49.215 5 46.084 2.803 0.144 11 –
7 3 Rick Samu 49.731 11 45.605 3.319 0.516 11 –
8 9 Charles Gordon 50.024 4 45.338 3.612 0.293 8 –
9 3 Troy Howell 50.578 4 44.842 4.166 0.554 10 –
10 9 Louie Valasquez 50.852 6 44.600 4.440 0.274 10 –
11 4 Mike Jansen 51.637 4 43.922 5.225 0.785 4 –
12 117 Don Wright 1:01.024 2 37.166 14.612 9.387 2 –p-2 thru p-7 were within 1 second. Pole to p-7 was 3.31 sec!
Seems like we need to keep the Colorado racing series respectable. Everyone seems to have their own agenda and I don’t want to have a National engine builder build my spec motors to the nats a$$ to be competitive.
In the Rotax series. I doubt the california boys brought their highest level motors to size us up. Is everyone showing up with massaged motors? Is Roman going to be the only stock motor (provided we qualify of course) I’m starting to feel like were bringing a knife to a gun fight. Do these motors really have an advantage? Are we wasting time and money to think we can compete?
We love the people we race with, we love the competition, I love the fact that I can provide my son with a wholesome sport to learn about competition but I should have just kept the shifter with 2 built Icc motors and gone out and had fun with the boys.
I don’t want to get into this whole bashing deal but this is getting a little too crazy.
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