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Angie MacEwen.
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- October 12, 2005 at 1:32 pm #41164
Jim Keesling
ParticipantHello all,
The TaG world championships went off very well in New Castle last weekend. I wanted to report on the weights used.
As all of you know, the CSC did not use the current weights imposed by TaG USA. We followed the ’05 updates back in April.
The grid for the masters class was 1 rotax, 17 leapords, and the 3 “boost port” motors were all snug as the last 3 on the grid (two soniks and 1 iltasystem)
My arms are sore from trying to turn a 445 lb kart thru the turns, and I ran out of brake pads by Sunday – all four sets. It wasn’t even close as you can tell by the times.
Once again, until some organization can do proper, control testing of the motors, the weights TaG USA uses aren’t there yet. I hope they start taking weight off ALL of the classes, and still keep differences between the different types of motors.
In the expert class, the unweighted motors were all close.All in all, a great event, awesome track and facility, and great staff.
Try to put this one on your calander for next year.
Thanks,
JimOctober 12, 2005 at 2:36 pm #51813Doug Welch
ParticipantWe’ve got a solution for the brakes, it’s called Wilwood! When we were at New Castle earlier this year, we raced both Billy Lewis and Mark Dismore Jr. Billy was using a Sonic at the time and Mark was of course on his Leopard. Running at TaG senior weights before Sonic got raised, it wasn’t even close. Billy was 1.5 seconds quicker than both us and Dismore and it as all in the straights! It was after that race and based on what Mark saw, he changed the weights for all three engines at his track.
http://www.newcastleraceway.com/classes.shtml
We were faster than both through the eastern half of the track but once they got to the straight, the Sonic checked out. The Leopard pulled us a bit, but not much. Greg and Mark had a great race for a while. You guys ran the monza turn going north which we did not, so that would have negated the Sonics a bit.
It does point out the difficulty of making weights that work at all tracks and all track configurations. Add to that the differences in driver and chassis setups. For example, at IMI, some drivers with exactly the same engine package are 1.5 second off other drivers. To account for the difference by motor alone there would have to be 7 to 10 hp differences! It may well be an impossible task to truely balance the packages given such disparities.
October 12, 2005 at 4:48 pm #51814Tom Dennin
ParticipantSpeakings of TaG weights,
Can anyone inform me about the weights for the Supernationals? Are they going to be running the TAG groups seperately?? What is with the A and B group designations?
The last thing I was told by Todd B. was that the weight for the Sonik would be 415lbs for the masters. Now it looks as if the have it at 420lbs and split between A and B groups.
Thanks,
Tom
October 12, 2005 at 10:52 pm #51815Anonymous
InactiveTom and group,
In an attempt to bring some sanity to the insane, we’ve simplified the Tag Weight structure.
There are two weights. 360-390 for senior and 30 more for Master. See our primer.
There have been calls about Rotaxs being disadvantaged by this. I don’t believe this to be true.
Here’s why. SKUSA has never adopted the final weight changes that TAG USA placed on “boost ported” motors. That was 30 lbs. So SKUSA never recognized the need for that.
In CO we were lucky with TAG and could stay with our intially published rules. I believe those rules to be fine, but too complicated. IN 05 in CO the Rotax ran at 365 the Sonic(clearly the superior engine in the class,overall) ran at 385, a 20 lbs difference. Under the new rules there is a 30 lbs difference between Rotax and the Sonic. Advantage Rotax.
This new weight package does have the Rotax giving up 5 lbs from the old rules to new to the Leopard( 370-365). But, I believe that the Rotax and leopard have not proven one to be better than another, cetain tracks do favor one over the other. But a track thats a “ROTAX” track is still a Rotax track with weight being 5 lbs heavier. 5 lbs isn’t enough to make a diffence. PLus, I’d like to know who made the determination that one engine was faster but only by 5 lbs. Rather small increment. Point is if a track favors a rotax the 5 lbs isn’t going to stop it. If the track isn’t a Rotax track no weight break will make a difference. advantage= a wash.
Overall I feel this helps the rotax racer.
Also, the reason for inclusion of MS93 is solely based on the needs of the Rotax engine. Rotax recommends that fuel, and numerous people have reported to me that they run best on that fuel. I felt with some inherent liablities of the rotax(ie powerband width) letting them have the fuel recommended by Rotax helps them out. Advantage Rotax.
Also, of note. The WKA has derived their own weights for TAG. They list the weights differently but if you notice they follow this same type of structure. The only exception being the 118cc Sonic which is 5 lbs lighter than the heavy weight motors. Otherwise it is also a two tiered system, they just didn’t say it.
Any questions call me 317-774-7025 or email [email protected]
October 12, 2005 at 11:11 pm #51816Mike Jansen
ParticipantTodd,
Your argument has well defined points and very clear. Tom and others, what do you think? Kick butt in Vegas Rotax pilots…
October 12, 2005 at 11:22 pm #51817Doug Welch
ParticipantThe Rotax only has an advantage if the track doesn’t have a slow corner relative to the straights. Since it has a limited power range, engines that have a wider power band will pound the Rotax regardless of weight.
So when will the SuperNats track be posted? The way the track was last year, Rotax’s shouldn’t bother showing up. The only reason the Sonic and Commer didn’t win last year was they kept blowing them up. The best Rotax will be behind how ever many quality boost ported and Leopard engines are there. You couldn’t put enough weight on or take enough weight off the Rotax to make them competitve on that track. Between the cheaten Bilands and the boost port engines, we looked like we were going backwards down the straight. The slow corners were 6,000 rpm and they ran out of gear half way down the straight. So why all the secrecy?
And on the fuel, running MS98 hurts the Rotax. Running MS93 doesn’t help them, nor does it give them an advantage. Basically they run like like crap on the higher octane fuel. It really screws up the jetting. We have to lean them way down just to keep them running. If you really wanted to see one run, we would run 91 pump gas, or even 89. The Rotax is so low compression, the higher stuff octane kills them.
I’m telling my Rotax TaG customers, don’t waste one penny on the SuperNats until they see the track. Only then should they make up their minds about going.
October 13, 2005 at 1:26 am #51818Marc Elliott
ParticipantDo not get too angry Doug, I happen to know who is designing it, and it is being designed by quite capable hands, so need to worry.
October 13, 2005 at 2:40 am #51819Tom Dennin
ParticipantFirst, Todd do you remember this e-mail? “Tom,We released a primer about 3 days ago on our web site that covers this.Tag weights are per our 05 book. Yes the Sonic in Masters is 415.”
Second, you have taken 10lbs off the leopard, easykart, Rok and ’05 Biland and added 5lbs to the Sonik, Montori Seven and Comer. My question goes to your statement about the Sonik being the dominate engine pkg in CO. I do not think a Sonik was ran in the Sr class except for once. It was definitely run in the Masters class but the same people who were fast this year in the Sonik were fast last year in ohter engine pkgs. So how can you make that statement?
Now you have in effect created a net change of 15lbs with the motors I listed above. If you were using the CSC as a basis for changes as you indicated from your post, how can the ’05 Biland lose 10lbs? I believe they did pretty well with the right drivers at all tracks. What about the Leopard losing 10lbs??? I’m pretty sure I saw Mile Karting karts at the front always unless something unfortunate occurred. The only wieght change that seems to make any sense is the decrease of 10lbs for the Easykart. They just seemed to be underpowered because I know they had quality drivers and tuners.
The changes in TaG weights always seem to be so out of touch with reality. If you are changing them due to the track layout that would make sense. If you are changing them due to engine mfg pressures or sponsorship issues that would sense. It would suck but it would make sense. If you are changing them because of actual data that was publishable that suggested a way to eliminate particular advantages of particular engines that would make sense. To change the rules less than 30 days out with no warning????? What possibly could motivate this? Some of us have already made plans, shipped karts with specific engine pkg, purchased plane tickets and hotel and car.
One last comment, now you have the ’05 Biland back to practically the same weight as last year while all the other engine pkgs are heavier than last year?? If I am not mistaken, I believe the ’05 Biland is the motor in’04 that was incredible. Can someone please explain that to me?
Tom
October 13, 2005 at 12:44 pm #51820Doug Welch
Participant@Marc Elliott wrote:
Do not get too angry Doug, I happen to know who is designing it, and it is being designed by quite capable hands, so need to worry.
Marc
I have been told it will different on many occasions, but I have also been lied to many times by these guys. They have exactly zero credibility with me. In my opinion, you can’t believe a word out of their mouths until you see it posted on the web site.
Until they post the track layout, my adivce stands. Last years track was not a track to take a Rotax to and I won’t waste one penny on them until they come clean.
The other thing I want to see is a schedule. How on earth are they going to get 10 classes through and give you any kind of track time? Why are they giving so much track time to SP when they are paying the same entry fee as the rest of the racers. Why are the support class being forced to purchase 2 sets of tires at a price that’s a least $20 to $30 higher than just about what any racer can buy them for.
I’ve been told that we will be doing so much racing that we will need two sets of tires. That’s a bunch of bull. I have been going to SuperNats long before most current racers started racing. The support classes can easily get by with one set. K2, K3 and Tag do NOT need two sets of tires to get through this event. If the 125 guys need two sets, they really should learn how to setup their kart and how to preserve tires.
I was going to the SuperNats when there were 50-60 guys in almost every class. It was grueling just to make the main event. We were very proud to get our national number there and we wore them with pride and honor. I remember one year where every one of the top 10 in our class was there and every one had their national numbers on. You could feel the respect the other racers gave you when you pulled into the grid area. You could see how happy and proud they were when they were able to run with the national numbers. That is all gone.
If you made the main without going through the LCQ, you really did something. I strongly doubt that they’ll need LCQ’s for any class. Most classes won’t have full fields.
October 13, 2005 at 2:04 pm #51821Marc Elliott
ParticipantWho says anyone from Skusa is designing the track.
And BTW, yes I do believe that this event will not have what events in the past have had, (I.E. Rio 03) and the others I was not attending.October 13, 2005 at 2:59 pm #51822Anonymous
InactiveTrack layout has been designed a pro as MArc said. I just saw it yesterday. It’s extrememly bitching. Essentially it just makes the best use possible of the available space.
The track will have a 750 foot straight away and it a hair over .7 miles long.
Fuel, obviously anyone knows we can’t spec pump gas at a race that racers actually expect us to tech the fuel. Not even possible to consider. The next best hting, low octane race fuel, ala MS93. AS I said it very easily could have remained MS98. Yes pump gas may be best, but since thats not possible MS93 is better than using MS98.
Can someone point me to a website with the layout for the STars event in Austin two days from now?
Expect out track layout next week. 3 weeks before the event.
Doug,
On track design. Do you expect us to be able to build one track and every one like it. It’s a TM track it’s a pavesi track it a rotax track ita a Sonic track. I never remember all this when we all just ran Hondas. Makes the Parity in ICC and TAG a joke even compared to the last days of domination in Motos By Swedetech.(This statement doesn’t mean I dislike ICC)This track is designed for 300 racers is different karts and classes. Comprimises will abound. And over all a good track is a good track. I believe thats what we have.
PS A pro was hired to design our track, it’s done, believe it.
I also would appreciate you keeping your negative advice to yourself. These people are grown ups and can make decisions what they want to do all on their own. The negative is just that negative. All we’re doing is providing a place to race. Whats so evil about provide racing outlets?? And if didn’t notice it’s not required by law to attend.
PLus we’ve heard it all from you already.
October 13, 2005 at 3:10 pm #51823Anonymous
InactiveDoug said,
If you made the main without going through the LCQ, you really did something. I strongly doubt that they’ll need LCQ’s for any class. Most classes won’t have full fields.What do you base this on? Your feeling. I’ll give you some facts, but don’t let those get in the way though.
Entry is over 50% percent higher right now than at the same time last year. Fact.
October 13, 2005 at 3:13 pm #51824Anonymous
InactiveDoug,
said That is all gone.Is SKUSA what it was in the hey day, no. Are we moving forward, growing and making positive contributions, yes.
So tell me, you know I know the real reason, why is not the same as before? Here’s a hint 1-1.1=-.1
October 13, 2005 at 3:22 pm #51825Anonymous
InactiveTom,
I the same release that says sonics run 415 this also was written.The final event primer and technical updates will be released no later than 30 days prior to the launch of SuperNationals IX, which is October 10, 2005. If you have any questions, please contact Todd Bellew at [email protected] with any questions.
This means we try and get info as soon as we can. We have learned however to always reserve the right to make changes if necessary. What we did was promise that at 30 days no changes will be made. Corrections, ommisions and typos are not changes.
The only thing we had to change from the first primer was the Tag weights.
October 13, 2005 at 3:30 pm #51826Anonymous
InactiveTom said:
The changes in TaG weights always seem to be so out of touch with reality. If you are changing them due to the track layout that would make sense. If you are changing them due to engine mfg pressures or sponsorship issues that would sense. It would suck but it would make sense. If you are changing them because of actual data that was publishable that suggested a way to eliminate particular advantages of particular engines that would make sense. To change the rules less than 30 days out with no warning????? What possibly could motivate this?
Tom don’t take this wrong , I respect you. I just wanted to address some of your concerns.
Out of touch- Has anyhting ever been in touch with tag weights? Considering I attend races all over the country and participate daily with the industry, I don’t personally feel we’re out of touch.
PArt of tag problems is that tracks make a difference. We are not going to start adjusting weigts for different tracks. The structure we have is simple and in reality not far off what was already being done.
Superkarts! USA since I’ve been here has never done anything outside the interest of whats best for our business. In our business taking “bribe money’ as your eluding to is bad for business. Never been done and won’t. And it verges on an insult to suggest such a thing.
Published data. Has any set of Tag weights ever been based on true complete honest testing following the scientific method. NO. Should we let a person with years karting experience, been around the country and viewed many races, participating daily in rule making make a decision or a less qualified individual?
No changes were made less than 30 days, read our first primer I posted on top here. The final Primer was 30 days prior.
What motivated it. Read my first post. Simplicity. Does anyone disagree that TAg needs simplified. Then how? Here’s one way.
Hopefully this helps.
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