TaG vs ICA (not horsepower)

Home Forums General Discussion TaG vs ICA (not horsepower)

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  • #42297
    Kirk Deason
    Participant

    I keep hearing and reading that the ‘pure’ direct drive class of racing breeds a better driver. Ok, I get that smoothness is rewarded with speed.

    My question centers around whether TaG is essentially direct drive? My clutch locks up somewhere between 4-to 5k and (as far as I can tell from my data) my clutch does NOT disengage even in the slowest corners where my rpm would drop to about 7500 (roughly). So..once the kart is rolling and out of the pits, is TaG not essentially a direct drive kart?

    Aren’t the same learned skills of smooth driving rewarded in TaG as they are in ICA?

    I’ve never raced or had exposure to HPV or KT100’s but don’t those motors slip their clutches to 9 or 10k rpm? And then THAT would make them more of a ‘clutch kart’ than a TaG?

    Just looking for clarity as to why ICA is perceived as being ‘better’ than TaG for teaching a driver to be smooth and fast when TaG is an order of magnitude cheaper than the ICA grenades.

    #58849
    Mike Jansen
    Participant

    ICA is what they run overseas and your comments are pretty spot on.

    Besides, what’s not to like (from a spectators point of view) than a good kablammo…

    #58850
    Rick Schmidt
    Participant

    Your comments are pretty close.

    Although the previous breed of Ica motors rev well past the typical Tag motor. Have you ever seen any of the onboard Ica stuff? It is wicked. You can find some on Youtube. Try “shifter kart” or “ica kart”

    And if you screw up, there is no starter button to get her going again.

    #58851
    Curt Kistler
    Participant

    The ICA stuff rev’s out to 20K! You should hear them race when there is a full field. They are also about 1 – 1.5 seconds a lap faster that a top notch TAG motor.

    One little mistake and you go from 1st to 5th in a matter of one corner. Pretty amazing to watch, and they are the elite drivers in karting.

    #58852
    Kirk Deason
    Participant

    @Curt Kistler wrote:

    One little mistake and you go from 1st to 5th in a matter of one corner. Pretty amazing to watch, and they are the elite drivers in karting.

    I must be an ICA driver then! I’ve gone from 2nd to last in one corner!

    The point of my post was to ask if TaG is essentially a lower cost (less Hp, fewer revs, harder tires, etc) version of ICA. Do we agree that it IS direct drive once we leave the pits? (ignore the starter for a few moments, irrelevant)

    #58853
    Mike Jansen
    Participant

    to answer the question…

    Yes, it is a direct drive only when we have a spin or such we can press the starter button to get going again…

    #58854
    Curt Kistler
    Participant

    Yes Kirk you are basically on direct drive once you are on track in the heat of the battle with the RPM’s high. The momentum style of driving is less forgiving than what we do in shifters.
    TAG is much more cost effective than ICA due to the fact that you only need one motor per season, for most racers, where as ICA top level drivers show up with as many as four power plants to get through one weekend. All motors that survive or not get a fresh bottom end after they are run. Get’s pretty pricey, just ask Richie from RBI about his past ICA experiences. He has some great stories to be told.

    #58855
    Kurt Freiburg
    Participant

    Not only are ICA’s fast (partly due to lighter weight), and sound great, when they stick (frequently) they add new meaning to the term “engine braking” 😯

    Keep in mind that ICA’s are very endangered, the CIK has already switched to the KF series engines (which are basically expensive TaGs), and Stars is urgently looking for a replacement. 9 out of 28 starters finished the Sunday Utah Stars race.

    #58856
    Garrick Mitchell
    Participant

    I’ve never driven (and probably have never even seen in person) an ICA motor, but I’m wary of statements to the effect of “direct drive equals locked-up clutch.”

    Back in my bicycle racing days, I spent a few years’ worth of Friday nights on the velodrome in Houston (track bikes = single fixed gear, and Look, Ma! No Brakes!). All I can say is, riding a fixed gear is way, way more than just leaving your road bike in the same gear all the time and telling yourself not to coast. You just plain go faster on the fixed gear than you would using the same gear ratio on a road bike. Maybe it’s the reduced weight of the machine, or the lower rotating mass or reduced friction of the drivetrain, but it’s definitely a different sensation.

    Switching back to karts, you may think your clutch is “locked up,” but the fact remains there’s a finite amount of friction holding the clutch shoes in place on the drum (sorry, folks, I only hablo Rotax). Shock loading can result in some slippage, even if it isn’t perceptible to the driver. In the drive direction, the clutch is self-energizing, but in the opposite direction it isn’t.

    It may be that 99.9% of the time, yes, a locked-up clutch might as well be direct drive. But still, you have the extra rotating mass of the clutch assembly that you have to accelerate and decelerate, and you have a “mechanical fuse” (clutch slippage) the direct drive just doesn’t have if things get hairy.

    That’s the Mechanical Engineer’s perspective, anyway… I, for one, would’ve found it much more difficult to get into karting as much as I have without the clutch and the starter. 🙂

    #58857
    Mike Jansen
    Participant

    After that explanation I really do need the Schmuterator 9000XL

    8)

    #58858
    Kirk Deason
    Participant

    Garrick, you just made my head hurt. You are right, I just needed an M.E. to explain it to me.

    but I’m wary of statements to the effect of “direct drive equals locked-up clutch.”

    You should be wary of my statements..very very wary. I’m just along for the ride and the humor.

    #58859
    Garrick Mitchell
    Participant

    LOL… Sorry ’bout that, guys… I’ll tone it down. 8)

    #58860
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    ICA’s aren’t as fast as people make them out to be. Their lap times are only about 1.5 seconds faster than a TAG, but keep in mind that they run YJB’s where a TAG runs YHC’s. The tires alone are a full second. That leaves them at about .5 faster in most cases.

    You will learn to drive smoothly in a rotax or TAG as in any other kart, including ICA. Keep in mind though, smooth isn’t always fast.

    I think ICA’s are awesome, but the cost is unbelieveable. I can’t wait for the KF’s to come over the pond. They aren’t too pricy, but certainly more than a Leopard. For the HP its definitely worth it :cheers:

    Cody Tracy
    Firstkart
    Reaction Karting

    #58861
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Good luck finding a class to run in locally with it?

    #58862
    Mike Jansen
    Participant

    Great, another motor wanting a class.

    Bitter, party of one out…

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