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The idea of moto’s not competeing is not really true. Look at G1 they have a mixed class and I’ve seen motos win a lot. At GJ Tom was the fastest guy, on a moto.
G1 national Champ, Howie Idelson, on a moto.
Just looked at results from a 75 kart field at an 1100 entry race from Wisconsin. The picture shows a three kart showdown for the final. Guess what won, a moto. This is long track stuff where ICC are suppose to rule.
At New castle Joe Janowski was .6 seconds off the ICC’s. IN a STOCK motor. There for is your .6 seconds off ICC with a built motor, guess where the time is.
If some one isn’t competitive in a moto against ICC, its not because it’s a moto.
All the fast 125 Masters at Black Rock were moto motors. As a matter of fact, they were really fast. Just ask Reed, Rein and Keesling.
“If some one isn’t competitive in a moto against ICC, its not because it’s a moto.”
Ok, so I am slow. If the moto is so competitive against ICC’s why would there only be ICC’s in the Pro class? Wake me up when a moto motor wins any of the CSC races. If there is no differance then why would many teams sell off there moto packages to go with a more expensive, more maintenance ICC package? It’s sort of like the 50 mm axle deal. No one went to 50 mm because it was slower and less costly. Why don’t you muddy the water in the S3 class with stock ICC’s then?
Our results page doesn’t seperate who was driving what so I can’t tell exactly who was on a moto in all the classes. If you were refering to Tom Kutscher as being the fastest moto driver @ 53.4 I can only compair that to the known ICC class slowest time of 52.6 the weight differance from Toms class to pro ICC I suppose could put his moto motor at least at the back of the pack in Pro ICC.
I’m not going to be there Sunday, still wish I could be, as this is my first CSC event I have missed. Maybe I am just a little burnt out.What weight did Tom Come across the scales when he turned those laps compared to the ICC? I know it was a lot.
Plus, with all do respect to Tom. He’s not as fast as that person in ICC. So considering the weight difference and skill difference .8 of a sec is pretty damn good. Plus, his motor was on its way out for most of that day.
Any place where ICC and Moto have competed together there has been Motos some of the races.
While trying to get real comparisons of our local races of the S1 and S2 classes there is no information as to who runs what, that I can find. The only way to make any comparison would require either being there to wittness who’s driving what or to know each persons engine choice.
Sure we have some drivers racing with motos, yet I only know of ICC’s taking the checker’ed flag.
If someone in the know could please help me out with some facts and tell me which kart or driver at IMI had the fastest time in S1 or S2 with a moto motor last Sunday? I see on mylaps that the S3 class grew again, cool.At the SKUSA web site there is a FAQ page that explains why I think that CSC is making a mistake by mixing ICC and Moto in S1 and S2.
“For drivers that are of senior age (15+), we suggest starting in either S3 (Stock Moto) which is a class that is gaining huge momentum across the US if shifter karts is where you want to be. You can then take that engine and modify it later to run in S1 or S2. “
“If you’ve got racing experience, obviously you can still choose S3 or TAG. You might also be interested in S1, S2, or ICC. These classes are for modified 125cc shifter engines, and the thrills are second to none. S1 and S2 utilize modified motocross engines, such as a Honda or Yamaha. ICC is the top level shifter karting engine, and should only be used by those with plenty of experience.”
In my previous post I asked if any one knew of the fastest time a moto motor set at round three of CSC. If it would help I can post the 16 drivers names that raced in the 2 classes, yet I think the list would only have maybe 5 moto motors that were at the end of the time sheet.
Any one beating the drum for the S-3 class growth in Colorado should also be concerned with keeping either S1 or S2 as a mod moto only class for those that want to go a nother step with their S3 package. I don’t see it as asking for too much. I do think that I wont be getting much support from the majority of these two classes as the more experianced shifter teams have allready either switched to utilize CSC’s outlaw rules and are running with ICC’s or have quit shifter racing and gone to other things.
In support of the Honda CR125 Moto:
Although I am not racing this year (just closed on a house this morning) I have several comments to add in support of a properly tuned (and driven) moto-powered shifterkart.
1) I have the clockwise track record at IMI on a Moto.
2) I typically qualified in the top three of the Pro class at all CSC tracks last year on a Moto
3) I did not rebuild a bottom-end or have any “terminal” failures last year on a MotoWith that being said, I certainly think that the Moto will more than keep up with an ICC if it is properly tuned and driven. Just ask the Pro class guys that I raced against last year….
In addition, this past weekend at IMI, Mike Frank qualified third in G1 (less than 0.4 off pole) on a Moto and was unfortunately battling some understeer issues. Had his kart been handling properly, the pole would have been a definite possibility.
Thanks for your feedback Doug.
In the begining of this topic I did admit that I am new to the shifter classes.
Sorry, I must be wrong in my thinking that there are inequities between well built and driven ICC and Honda Motos. I am still confuzed as to why then is the top of our ladder system called Pro ICC? I see you mentioned the great reliability you experianced with your moto package,which I should have boughten at the begining of the season, yet if you did race this year again in the pro class would the moto motor be allowed in Pro ICC? I just don’t understand, I get a few people telling me and showing some facts that there is no differences between using an ICC or a moto motor to get to the front, yet our system is in place and doing well at promoting the ICC.
Then top it off with a stock honda moto only class of S3 as being the stepping stone that ends at the top with an ICC. Where is the stock ICC at in the system?
I guess I am too stuck on my old thoughts of a 1 engine class of racing with blueprinting rules that seperate which class it gets used in rather than what class the driver decides to enter in.
O-well, you know what, shifter racing is much bigger than TAG in CSC if we would just race it like TAG with one light class and one heavy class. The only purpose I see at this time for S1 and S2 is to let slower drivers with a detuned moto get some trophies.Doug, Did Mike Frank buy your Swedtechs?
Freeze,
No I did not buy Doug’s SwedeTech. I have Sam Walls’ motor that he won the Pro class in 2003 with. As far as why the top level of the shifters is called Pro ICC, at the beginning of the year, Jim contacted me about who could be running pro this year with a Moto. At the time, I could only think of a couple of people who might run pro with a Moto. Since the first of the year, we have had those people either drop out of racing or move to other classes/motors. Most of the people you see racing in Pro ICC are racing at the national level with STARS. STARS is ICC only for 125’s. That is why you don not see anybody racing here in the Pro class with a Moto. As far as competivness of the Moto vs. ICC, I would take my Built Moto over an ICC anyday. My Moto has at least the legs if not more than the ICC’s I have raced against this year. The problem with a highly built Moto is you have got to be dead nuts on with the jettting and also with chassis setup. The Moto requires a different chassis setup to get the power to the track because of the way it “hits”. Hope this helps.
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