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When we have motors of variying horsepower, weight can be used as an effective method to help balance the packages. We see it it many forms of racing, not just karts. World challenge for example uses weight to help balance the competition. In World Challenge, if you win, next time out you are carring more weight.
Jim brings up a good point, how much does weight really impact the performance. I can give a little insite Recently Greg was asked to test drive a customer’s karts where he works. Greg was almost 2 seconds faster than the customer. The customer said it was because he weighed 35# more than Greg. So they added 35# to the kart (including the ankle weights Greg wore) and it slowed him only .2 to .3 of a second. So the weight clearly had an impact but not as much as some people may think.
The must larger impact on performance is how the engine delivers the power and what are the requirements of the track. IMI is a very unusual track. It is long and has no slow corners. In our kart, neither of the boys hardly touch the brakes. They only use the brakes twice or three times, depending on the direction of the track. And then it’s not really to slow the kart, but to set the kart for the corner.
The Rotax has a limited power band. It has nothing below 7,000 and nothing over 12,800. But in that range, it is very strong. It has better mid range than any of the engines. At a track like IMI, we can run our engine between 8,500 and 12,500. At a track like that, the Rotax will be king. It is no surpise to me that Rotax owned the front row in senior. Combine good drivers with a engine package well suited for the track, what else would you suspect.
The Sonic has a range from around 7,00-8,000 to over 17,000. That is a usable power band of almsot 10,000 rpm. The usable power band of the Rotax is roughly 5,500. If the track requires a wider power band, who do you think is going to dominate?
At New Castle, it is just the opposite. That track has three very slow corners. We were out of gear 3/4 of the way down the straight yet we were at or below 6,000 of the slow corners. The Sonics were 1 to 1.5 seconds quicker. It wasn’t any where near close. If I was going to race at New Castle, I certainly wouldn’t take a Rotax or any other motor at the current weights. We were able to match the Leopards there (we beat all but one), but neither of us could come anywhere near the Sonics. New Castle is more the norm in tracks in that it has slow corners and fast straights. At Bandimere, the Sonics should have a clear advantage, at CRE, the Sonics should crush. At Grand Junction, it will be a bit more balanced, but a quality driver with a good chassis should dominate on one of the eight port designs. At Steamboat Springs, the straights are not that long so it should be a little more even.
The biggest problem is the basic design of the engines. We have motors that are 8 port designs that a little more than punched out ICA engines with starters and we have motors that are designed for recreational purposes, like the Leopard and the Rotax. For purposes of this discussion, the Biland is more like the Rotax and Leopard than the 8 port engines. As long as Tag allows such disparete designs to compete together, one motor will always have an advantage at some track. The challenge for TaGUSA is to find a balance for most tracks in the country. Most tracks are more like New Castle than IMI.
My concern has never been with my own team but for the sport as a whole. Since we are not running any series for points, I really could care less how well we do overall. We race simply for the joy of racing and to do the best we can. Our over riding goal is to have a safe and fun weekend.
But I am very concerned about the direction of our sport. Tag has been sold as a low cost, bolt the engine on your kart and go out and play. When any engine dominates, it’s bad for the sport and it’s bad for TaG. Some of the engines are not low maintenance. Of allthe TAg einges at New Castle, only the Sonic failed. If one of the low maintenance engines dominates, it will kill TAG. What the importers and the manufacturers have to realize, if they want to be successful in TaG, they must make their engines easy to maintain, easy to tune and last a long time. They will “win” in the market place with customer service, not on the track for Tag USA will make sure no engine dominates by adjusting weight, mid season if they have to. That is the entire premeise of TAG. We all knew that TaG USA could and would adjust weights during the year. Now when they are doing what they said they would do, some of us don’t like it.
Personally, I would rather have seen TaG USA take a bit more ballanced approach to the weight issue. By that, I mean take weight out of the slower karts and add weight to the higher hp karts. I think that makes a bit more sense for a kart owner.
The last thing and it was the reason for my earlier post, is a simple question. Are we going to follow a national set of rules or are we not? If we say we are, then we have to follow them regardless of where they lead.
Doug,
I agree with your statements, however, we race here at IMI, GJ and Bandimere. It really doesn’t matter what happens at New Castle, or any other track around the US, it matters what happens here, in our region. We havn’t seen any big advantage to they way our series is running. If you want to adjust the motor advantages to level the field, then we should set weight adjustments for each track AND motor to make it fair. Once the snowball starts rolling downhill, its hard to stop it. The CSC is following a national set of rules, SKUSA. Joe has told me SKUSA is not following the latest change by TaGUSA. The CSC is following suit.
The difference in the motor packages is more noticable once “pro” drivers started racing the in class. The recreational driver wouldn’t have seen much difference, however bring in the pro’s and we now have opened up a new set of problems. You saw this first hand when Greg frist raced his TaG kart last year, then jumped in Kyle and you both were several seconds faster than the entire field. Motor difference, no. Experience. Yes.
I just feel we need to know how to level the field so that it is a documented change and not a guess.
Lets see if we can’t “steer” the rule setting orgs. in the right direction.
Bye for now,
JimWow! This is esactly why I stayed out of the CSC this year. You couldn’t help but know that the last minute decision to go with SKUSA would not solve the controversies and that new ones would emerge. Translation – pay more money so we can trade one set of issues for another.
I guess, “As a matter of rule, we will follow TAG USA 100% for this year on all matters concerning engine rules.” meant only until it doesn’t suit somebody in power.
Frankly, the arguements posted here for changing the rules (deciding now to not follow TAG USA 100%) are very, very weak. No offense intended but it smells fishy. It makes you wonder if Sonik and SKUSA are in bed together or if the “change the rules” guys (Joe and Jim) personally run Sonik motors. :cheers:
Larry,
1st) SKUSA was not a last minute decision.
2nd) Yes, I do run a sonik
3rd) If you choose not to be a part of CSC, you have no voice in the matter
4th) See the post on E-karting news, its the TaGUSA org that is “fishy”.
from e-karting news:
PR Wire: TS Racing Comments on TaG USA’s Weight Increase
The following is a letter released by TS Racing on the issue of TaG USA weight increase on the Sonik and Comer enginesOn June 16, 2005, TaG USA President, Dave Larson, announced that he was increasing the class weight for karts using the Sonik TX and Comer 365AE engines, from 385 to 415 pounds. Sonik Racing Engines, TS Racing, Inc, Comer Spa, and Grand Products want our customers and the karting community to understand our position on this change.
First, we were not notified in advance of this change. After the announcement, we attempted to contact Dave Larson to determine the reasoning behind his decision. We requested information about any dyno or on-track testing used in making this decision. At this time, Mr. Larson has not responded.
Based on our contact with tracks, clubs and the major kart sanctioning bodies, we believe this was an arbitrary change made without the best interest of the karter in mind. The basic structure of TaG is working at many locations around the country. As with any multiple engine class, certain engines perform better at certain tracks. Current results show that engine parity has been achieved when looking at the country as a whole.
This weight adjustment is in direct conflict with the decision made by TaG USA in its April 21, 2005 rule change. Dave Larson, TaG Racing International and TaG USA announced, ?With that in mind, we at TaG Racing International have come to the decision to return to the 2005 weights as published. These weights will remain in effect for the balance of the 2005 season.” It was also made effective immediately with no ?cooling off? period to allow for discussion or racer input.
We applaud IKF, WKA, SKUSA and KART for their desire and strength to stand behind the rules that were in place from the beginning of the 2005 racing season. We ask all Sonik & Comer owners to express their opinions directly to TaG USA, phone number 866-489-3283 or by email [email protected] and to continue to support the national kart sanctioning organizations that support your engine programs: SKUSA, WKA, IKF, and K.A.R.T.
Opinions can also be forwarded to the TaG Work Group:
IKF- John Motley – [email protected]
KART-Bernie Baldus – [email protected]
SKUSA-Todd Bellew – [email protected]
WKA-Dan Stowell – [email protected]Larry, if you don’t like it, why don’t you come up with options to fix it?
Just wondering,
JimJim,
Thanks for the offer to ?fix it? but I?ve been told that I ?have no voice in the matter.? :idn:
Again, I don?t mean any offense at anybody. I?m just an enthusiastic Colorado karter who can?t help but chuckle at the situation. I have no vested interest in SKUSA, TAG USA, CSC, or any kart/engine related business. I guess that is why it is easy for me to just sit back an laugh at all this. 😆 I do clearly remember earlier in the year when the decision was made (very late if not last minute) to go with a national sponsoring organization largely because it would provide a rule book that would be enforced to the letter. I find it ironic that the rule book is being ignored in this situation. Nothing serious, just funny as hell. :cheers:
Hey Larry,
In my honest opinion things are far better than last year!!!! Yes there are still problems but hopefully it can be called growing pains. The truth will come out next year. If there is a problem with SKUSA or rules there are enough people out there that will say something, and if it falls on deaf ears I for one will yell louder.
Brian Moore,
Father of Brandon #77 comer 80 and Novice shifter
Track record holder at Grand Junction and IMI in comer jr.1Larry and Brian,
First I want to say I’m sorry for being a little rough in my post. Everyone that has spent hard earned dollars on a kart really has a voice. I just get a little tired of all the problems being pointed out and no solutions. I don’t know if there even will ever be a solution. It seems to always be the lessors of all the evils.
Please keep the comments coming, regardless of what I say. Hopefully everyone working together will find a solution and make the differences in this sport all work together.
Thanks for putting up with me and my posts.
Have a great weekend,
JimSince I don’t race TaGs I am just an outsider looking in. TaGs have been around for awhile now and everyone knows the advantages and pitfalls of each engine type. You can pick and choose the engine based on the criteria that best suits your individual needs. If someone chooses an inferior engine, why would you penalize the others?
However, that said… there are other ways to level the playing field and stay within the rules of a santioning body.
1)Obviously, keep a minimum weight to balance larger drivers with smaller drivers. Keep the SKUSA weights since that is the program followed.
2)Since the CSC series is only on a few tracks, you could give a required “gear package” with specific gear ratios for each engine type at each track. For example at a track like Bandimere you could require that engines with more bottom end power use a higher gear. The opposite would apply on a track like IMI or GJ.
3) Since this is a box stock class, everyone already knows what the torque and horsepower ratings of each engine type. It would be a matter of calculations to determine what peak horsepower rpm is and where that would be achieved at each facility. You could bring all the engines into a common horsepower range by requiring certain different gear ratios on each engine type.Or… you could hold it on longer and brake later.
Everyone should try to be as patient as possible in the manor of attempting to make the CSC a better place, IMO things are better then last year, and there are some problems, but we have to be civil and wait until next year before everything is better, we cannot expect things to fixed over night, but some people want everything fixed overnight, and thatjust cannot happen.
why can’t the CSC be a trend setter? No matter how it ends up the rest of the season someone will have a problem.
Here is a solution:
Run it like the British, German, or European touring car series. It seems very simple. We all have to take weight on and off depending what scales we are on so we are used to this. The fast guys get weight penalties and the slow guys get weight reductions. How easy is that????
Why don’t we try it??
Jim you are the SKUSA director make it happen 😀 Since the CSC was called the “outlaw series” let’s be the pilot program. I for one think it would great. The racing would be tight. I bet it would catch on and relieve all the moaning and bitching. No matter what the better drivers and tuners will prevail as always.
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