- This topic has 24 replies, 14 voices, and was last updated 20 years, 10 months ago by
.
- Posts
So, what you’re telling me is that I won’t see Lee Gagna, Jim Keesling and other Sonik drivers with big arms and legs from lifting their karts??? Not to mention sore backs?
Say it ain’t so!
😡 :bang
The way Lee is tearing up the Tag Masters except for last week Soniks need to have extra wt now not next yr.
But I also can agree with Rusty’s side.
The TAGUSA rules are a “living document”. We voted to use TAGUSA rules knowing the weights could be adjusted throughout the season.
From the SKUSA website, posted 1/27/05.
“As a matter of rule, we will follow TAG USA 100% for this year on all matters concerning engine rules.”
Ohhhhhhhhhhhh!
we now have a controversy-I think we adopt the new wt rule.
Stir it up-sounds like the committee needs to talk.
:argue
I’m writing this as the tag Rep and as a concerned kid kart parent. This inconsistency of rule following is becoming very frustrating.
1. Rules are rules. I thought we were paying this extra money so that we would have a printed and specific copy of rules. If SKUSA is changing their rules mid season, we change our rules mid season.
2. You weren’t worried about changing rules mid season when you alienated all of the animals and adult 4 strokes so that they couldn’t compete in our series.
3. The rules are very specific about the entry age of kid karters (5-7), not just turned 4. I don’t care if a 4 year old can keep up with me, rules are rules. I don’t have my 4 year out there, and he cries about it every week. Why is it ok for some and not for everyone.
The reason for rules is consistency. Not to use as a “guideline”. As Blink said, “Who made this decision”? Obviously not the board of directors, not the racing reps (I was contacted 2 weeks ago by Dave Larson who was concerned about the racers opinions) and not the racers. So WHO AND WHY?
My understanding was we were adopting SKUSA rules so that we would fit in nationally and lose our “outlaw” status. It was to bring more people into the sport. As far as I can see we have run a few good ones off (Rod, the News etc.) and scared a bunch of new ones off because of these inconsistencies.
Jay Jacobellis
Tag Masters #48d
CSC TAG Rep
Kid Kart Dad #21Oh great. Just to run 2 different series (Rotax Max and CSC) I already have to conform to WKA, RMax, and SKUSA rules. Now apparently CSC is adding another flavor.
:idn:
Charles
Hello everyone. Todd is out doing a test for our Project Stock Honda program today, so I thought I would touch on this. I’ll have a more “official” statement on our website soon.
From above, Doug is mostly correct. We do follow engine rules, meaning allowed engines, and technical guidelines. We use their weights as a matter of making our racers in line with other groups that also use the weights. But, we do allow ourselves the right to deviate if necessary. As a side note, we wrote all of those rules in 2004, so it made sense for us to keep using them this year to get a return on that investment.
About two months ago, a committee was formed that includes the technical staff of all major organizations. A primary purpose for this committee was to make joint decisions so that we avoid problems such as this. Simply, TAG USA put out the new weight rule without notifying anyone from the committee. This caught all of us by surprise. Honestly, this was one of my worries about following another group for what you intend to be a huge class in the future. Outside of this committee, each organization is naturally allowed to make a ruling in its best interest. Of course, this is muddied when some orgs are following another orgs rules. So here we are in this situation now.
I’m not going to argue whether the weight rule is correct or not. We’re still compiling information regarding this specific weight issue. However, I’m not thrilled with the idea of 415 (445 if you’re a master) pound kart with no front brakes and 80 pounds of lead on it. What I will argue is that TAG USA has forced other organizations to go into “fast decision” mode to decide whether to follow this change, or not. Usually, a hasty decision is not the correct decision.
I can say this at this point; we will continue to allow all engines that were approved to run in the junior classes to continue to run for their championships this year. To force someone to go out and buy a new engine in the middle of a race season is stupid. In addition, we are working quickly to determine what impact the weight change will have on our racers, and will make a decision very soon. We do have a poll on our website asking your opinion on this subject, so if you feel strongly about it, please vote.
About rules in general: You can trust me when I say that rules are difficult to write. When writing them, you have to try and plan for all possible scenarios, and sometimes you miss one. Also, when new information becomes available that was not available when you made a rule, then you must return to the rule and amend it if the new information calls for this. This was the case for our stock honda (S3) class, and the unclear wording regarding airboxes on K80 (a new adventure for us). Ironically, that is the beauty of a good rule book. It constantly gets better, more refined, and easier to follow. There are two trains of thought regarding this ability. Some organizations prefer to not do anything until their rules meeting for the next year. This can be good, and bad. We prefer to not make any wholesale change, rather amendments or clarifications during a year.
Take our stock honda amendment about a month ago. Our rules called for no interchangeability between engine years. This is great until you discover that 1999 “kit” engines from Honda come with different year cases, and sometimes ignitions. In that case, we had members out there racing thinking they were legal, when indeed they were not. As there is no performance issue involved, we amended the rule, brought everyone into compliance, and provided a great foundation for the growth of the class. If we were like other orgs, we couldn’t have rectified this situation until next year.
Jay, as for 4 year olds running kid karts, the answer is really simple. It is a matter of the insurance for events. The policy allows for kid kart drivers to be 5 years old and up. So it really isn’t a rule issue. Just one of coverage.
Respectfully,
Joe Janowski
Joe:
If this is the case then why was a 4 year old aloud to run. Was there a special writer on that child?
Jay
Jay,
Since this is sort of off topic, why don’t you email me at [email protected], or call the main office at 317.774.7025.
Thanks,
Joe Janowski
how many of you have driven a new TX sonik and another TAG setup this year? I have actually raced both this year and would like to add my two cents to this discussion.
At Bandimere it was really fast, outside pole, and last weekend at IMI I was off the qualifying pace by 2 seconds on the sonik TX in the TAG sr class. In the TAG master class at Bandimere I was on the outside pole again but with the Rotax. I did not run the Rotax at IMI, but last year I was on pole with bridgestones YGK’s and my times were faster than the sonik in TAG sr this year.
Everyone knows each engine is strong at given tracks. Doug Welch and I had this exact conversation on Sunday at IMI. Just look at last weekend at IMI, Rotax dominated the show. If Roman would have gotten a better start he would have been fighting for first with Charles. I believe that adding 30lbs to the Sonik was a knee jerk reaction to events that occurred on the East Coast and at New Castle.
The addition of 30lbs to the sonik TX was not a good decision by TAGUSA
As SKUSA Mountain Region Director, I would like to stand on my soapbox for a few moments regarding the TaG Weights. To start off I need to make a few points. 1) I totally agree with wanting level racing. 2) If there are differences, weight can help level the playing field. 3) The racing arena is completey the wrong venue to make such a decision. The results should be a guidline for any decision.
That being said, I now put a challange out to any track owner, rules creater and organizer to do the research to create a forumla on the effects of weight and time on a go-kart.
I know Doug Welch will have his two cents, however, he has an engine package and has a vested interest in how the results will affect his team. I know I have an engine package and have an interest in how the results will effect my team.
I want somebody to take two exactly identical karts (same motor package), one driver, 1 closed track, 1 day, several sets of tires, and test the times of adding or subtracting weight on a kart. The karting community needs to know what effect 5, 10, or 15 lbs. really makes in seconds around the track. The test should be completed with all TaG motors. Using racing results adds too many variables to the forumla (home track advantage, experience of driver, different times of the day, wear on tires…) This testing isn’t going to be cheap, and will take some time, however, when some organization puts out a rule change, at least there is some data to explain why.
My other challange to the rules creaters… Why are we always adding weight? What happens to the kart when we start taking weight off? Are the TaG senior drivers all on a diet, or is there room to level the playing field from the other side of the equation?
Once somebody has done the proper testing ON THE TRACK and not on a Dyno, we will have real answers to the effects of weight and the karts. We all know what the HP output is of each of the motors, however, lets look at the whole picture and start collecting the data to make an educated decision to level the playing field, if it needs it.
This is why I agree the best decision is to do nothing regarding the TaG update. They didn’t show any documentation regarding the decision, and the results of putting the weight on any of the motor packages.
See you at The Track,
JimWhen we have motors of variying horsepower, weight can be used as an effective method to help balance the packages. We see it it many forms of racing, not just karts. World challenge for example uses weight to help balance the competition. In World Challenge, if you win, next time out you are carring more weight.
Jim brings up a good point, how much does weight really impact the performance. I can give a little insite Recently Greg was asked to test drive a customer’s karts where he works. Greg was almost 2 seconds faster than the customer. The customer said it was because he weighed 35# more than Greg. So they added 35# to the kart (including the ankle weights Greg wore) and it slowed him only .2 to .3 of a second. So the weight clearly had an impact but not as much as some people may think.
The must larger impact on performance is how the engine delivers the power and what are the requirements of the track. IMI is a very unusual track. It is long and has no slow corners. In our kart, neither of the boys hardly touch the brakes. They only use the brakes twice or three times, depending on the direction of the track. And then it’s not really to slow the kart, but to set the kart for the corner.
The Rotax has a limited power band. It has nothing below 7,000 and nothing over 12,800. But in that range, it is very strong. It has better mid range than any of the engines. At a track like IMI, we can run our engine between 8,500 and 12,500. At a track like that, the Rotax will be king. It is no surpise to me that Rotax owned the front row in senior. Combine good drivers with a engine package well suited for the track, what else would you suspect.
The Sonic has a range from around 7,00-8,000 to over 17,000. That is a usable power band of almsot 10,000 rpm. The usable power band of the Rotax is roughly 5,500. If the track requires a wider power band, who do you think is going to dominate?
At New Castle, it is just the opposite. That track has three very slow corners. We were out of gear 3/4 of the way down the straight yet we were at or below 6,000 of the slow corners. The Sonics were 1 to 1.5 seconds quicker. It wasn’t any where near close. If I was going to race at New Castle, I certainly wouldn’t take a Rotax or any other motor at the current weights. We were able to match the Leopards there (we beat all but one), but neither of us could come anywhere near the Sonics. New Castle is more the norm in tracks in that it has slow corners and fast straights. At Bandimere, the Sonics should have a clear advantage, at CRE, the Sonics should crush. At Grand Junction, it will be a bit more balanced, but a quality driver with a good chassis should dominate on one of the eight port designs. At Steamboat Springs, the straights are not that long so it should be a little more even.
The biggest problem is the basic design of the engines. We have motors that are 8 port designs that a little more than punched out ICA engines with starters and we have motors that are designed for recreational purposes, like the Leopard and the Rotax. For purposes of this discussion, the Biland is more like the Rotax and Leopard than the 8 port engines. As long as Tag allows such disparete designs to compete together, one motor will always have an advantage at some track. The challenge for TaGUSA is to find a balance for most tracks in the country. Most tracks are more like New Castle than IMI.
My concern has never been with my own team but for the sport as a whole. Since we are not running any series for points, I really could care less how well we do overall. We race simply for the joy of racing and to do the best we can. Our over riding goal is to have a safe and fun weekend.
But I am very concerned about the direction of our sport. Tag has been sold as a low cost, bolt the engine on your kart and go out and play. When any engine dominates, it’s bad for the sport and it’s bad for TaG. Some of the engines are not low maintenance. Of allthe TAg einges at New Castle, only the Sonic failed. If one of the low maintenance engines dominates, it will kill TAG. What the importers and the manufacturers have to realize, if they want to be successful in TaG, they must make their engines easy to maintain, easy to tune and last a long time. They will “win” in the market place with customer service, not on the track for Tag USA will make sure no engine dominates by adjusting weight, mid season if they have to. That is the entire premeise of TAG. We all knew that TaG USA could and would adjust weights during the year. Now when they are doing what they said they would do, some of us don’t like it.
Personally, I would rather have seen TaG USA take a bit more ballanced approach to the weight issue. By that, I mean take weight out of the slower karts and add weight to the higher hp karts. I think that makes a bit more sense for a kart owner.
The last thing and it was the reason for my earlier post, is a simple question. Are we going to follow a national set of rules or are we not? If we say we are, then we have to follow them regardless of where they lead.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.