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Contrary to TAG USA’s April 21. 2005 Press Release they have decided to adopt new weights mid-season affecting boost ported engine packages.
These changes are scheduled to go into effect July1, 2005.
CSC will NOT adopt these changes at this time.Weights will remain the same in all TAG classes as previously posted.
There will be NO weight corrections at this time.
If it is determined that there is a discrepancy at seasons end we will review it and make neccessary changes effective in 2006.One of the issues brought up season after season all across the country has been the resistance to mid season rule changes. I think the CSC feels pretty much the same.
Although we are not modifying the rules for our series you are cautioned to make sure you know what weights will be in force at other series you may race in.
Rusty
So, what you’re telling me is that I won’t see Lee Gagna, Jim Keesling and other Sonik drivers with big arms and legs from lifting their karts??? Not to mention sore backs?
Say it ain’t so!
😡 :bang
The way Lee is tearing up the Tag Masters except for last week Soniks need to have extra wt now not next yr.
But I also can agree with Rusty’s side.
The TAGUSA rules are a “living document”. We voted to use TAGUSA rules knowing the weights could be adjusted throughout the season.
From the SKUSA website, posted 1/27/05.
“As a matter of rule, we will follow TAG USA 100% for this year on all matters concerning engine rules.”
Ohhhhhhhhhhhh!
we now have a controversy-I think we adopt the new wt rule.
Stir it up-sounds like the committee needs to talk.
:argue
I’m writing this as the tag Rep and as a concerned kid kart parent. This inconsistency of rule following is becoming very frustrating.
1. Rules are rules. I thought we were paying this extra money so that we would have a printed and specific copy of rules. If SKUSA is changing their rules mid season, we change our rules mid season.
2. You weren’t worried about changing rules mid season when you alienated all of the animals and adult 4 strokes so that they couldn’t compete in our series.
3. The rules are very specific about the entry age of kid karters (5-7), not just turned 4. I don’t care if a 4 year old can keep up with me, rules are rules. I don’t have my 4 year out there, and he cries about it every week. Why is it ok for some and not for everyone.
The reason for rules is consistency. Not to use as a “guideline”. As Blink said, “Who made this decision”? Obviously not the board of directors, not the racing reps (I was contacted 2 weeks ago by Dave Larson who was concerned about the racers opinions) and not the racers. So WHO AND WHY?
My understanding was we were adopting SKUSA rules so that we would fit in nationally and lose our “outlaw” status. It was to bring more people into the sport. As far as I can see we have run a few good ones off (Rod, the News etc.) and scared a bunch of new ones off because of these inconsistencies.
Jay Jacobellis
Tag Masters #48d
CSC TAG Rep
Kid Kart Dad #21Oh great. Just to run 2 different series (Rotax Max and CSC) I already have to conform to WKA, RMax, and SKUSA rules. Now apparently CSC is adding another flavor.
:idn:
Charles
Hello everyone. Todd is out doing a test for our Project Stock Honda program today, so I thought I would touch on this. I’ll have a more “official” statement on our website soon.
From above, Doug is mostly correct. We do follow engine rules, meaning allowed engines, and technical guidelines. We use their weights as a matter of making our racers in line with other groups that also use the weights. But, we do allow ourselves the right to deviate if necessary. As a side note, we wrote all of those rules in 2004, so it made sense for us to keep using them this year to get a return on that investment.
About two months ago, a committee was formed that includes the technical staff of all major organizations. A primary purpose for this committee was to make joint decisions so that we avoid problems such as this. Simply, TAG USA put out the new weight rule without notifying anyone from the committee. This caught all of us by surprise. Honestly, this was one of my worries about following another group for what you intend to be a huge class in the future. Outside of this committee, each organization is naturally allowed to make a ruling in its best interest. Of course, this is muddied when some orgs are following another orgs rules. So here we are in this situation now.
I’m not going to argue whether the weight rule is correct or not. We’re still compiling information regarding this specific weight issue. However, I’m not thrilled with the idea of 415 (445 if you’re a master) pound kart with no front brakes and 80 pounds of lead on it. What I will argue is that TAG USA has forced other organizations to go into “fast decision” mode to decide whether to follow this change, or not. Usually, a hasty decision is not the correct decision.
I can say this at this point; we will continue to allow all engines that were approved to run in the junior classes to continue to run for their championships this year. To force someone to go out and buy a new engine in the middle of a race season is stupid. In addition, we are working quickly to determine what impact the weight change will have on our racers, and will make a decision very soon. We do have a poll on our website asking your opinion on this subject, so if you feel strongly about it, please vote.
About rules in general: You can trust me when I say that rules are difficult to write. When writing them, you have to try and plan for all possible scenarios, and sometimes you miss one. Also, when new information becomes available that was not available when you made a rule, then you must return to the rule and amend it if the new information calls for this. This was the case for our stock honda (S3) class, and the unclear wording regarding airboxes on K80 (a new adventure for us). Ironically, that is the beauty of a good rule book. It constantly gets better, more refined, and easier to follow. There are two trains of thought regarding this ability. Some organizations prefer to not do anything until their rules meeting for the next year. This can be good, and bad. We prefer to not make any wholesale change, rather amendments or clarifications during a year.
Take our stock honda amendment about a month ago. Our rules called for no interchangeability between engine years. This is great until you discover that 1999 “kit” engines from Honda come with different year cases, and sometimes ignitions. In that case, we had members out there racing thinking they were legal, when indeed they were not. As there is no performance issue involved, we amended the rule, brought everyone into compliance, and provided a great foundation for the growth of the class. If we were like other orgs, we couldn’t have rectified this situation until next year.
Jay, as for 4 year olds running kid karts, the answer is really simple. It is a matter of the insurance for events. The policy allows for kid kart drivers to be 5 years old and up. So it really isn’t a rule issue. Just one of coverage.
Respectfully,
Joe Janowski
Joe:
If this is the case then why was a 4 year old aloud to run. Was there a special writer on that child?
Jay
Jay,
Since this is sort of off topic, why don’t you email me at [email protected], or call the main office at 317.774.7025.
Thanks,
Joe Janowski
how many of you have driven a new TX sonik and another TAG setup this year? I have actually raced both this year and would like to add my two cents to this discussion.
At Bandimere it was really fast, outside pole, and last weekend at IMI I was off the qualifying pace by 2 seconds on the sonik TX in the TAG sr class. In the TAG master class at Bandimere I was on the outside pole again but with the Rotax. I did not run the Rotax at IMI, but last year I was on pole with bridgestones YGK’s and my times were faster than the sonik in TAG sr this year.
Everyone knows each engine is strong at given tracks. Doug Welch and I had this exact conversation on Sunday at IMI. Just look at last weekend at IMI, Rotax dominated the show. If Roman would have gotten a better start he would have been fighting for first with Charles. I believe that adding 30lbs to the Sonik was a knee jerk reaction to events that occurred on the East Coast and at New Castle.
The addition of 30lbs to the sonik TX was not a good decision by TAGUSA
As SKUSA Mountain Region Director, I would like to stand on my soapbox for a few moments regarding the TaG Weights. To start off I need to make a few points. 1) I totally agree with wanting level racing. 2) If there are differences, weight can help level the playing field. 3) The racing arena is completey the wrong venue to make such a decision. The results should be a guidline for any decision.
That being said, I now put a challange out to any track owner, rules creater and organizer to do the research to create a forumla on the effects of weight and time on a go-kart.
I know Doug Welch will have his two cents, however, he has an engine package and has a vested interest in how the results will affect his team. I know I have an engine package and have an interest in how the results will effect my team.
I want somebody to take two exactly identical karts (same motor package), one driver, 1 closed track, 1 day, several sets of tires, and test the times of adding or subtracting weight on a kart. The karting community needs to know what effect 5, 10, or 15 lbs. really makes in seconds around the track. The test should be completed with all TaG motors. Using racing results adds too many variables to the forumla (home track advantage, experience of driver, different times of the day, wear on tires…) This testing isn’t going to be cheap, and will take some time, however, when some organization puts out a rule change, at least there is some data to explain why.
My other challange to the rules creaters… Why are we always adding weight? What happens to the kart when we start taking weight off? Are the TaG senior drivers all on a diet, or is there room to level the playing field from the other side of the equation?
Once somebody has done the proper testing ON THE TRACK and not on a Dyno, we will have real answers to the effects of weight and the karts. We all know what the HP output is of each of the motors, however, lets look at the whole picture and start collecting the data to make an educated decision to level the playing field, if it needs it.
This is why I agree the best decision is to do nothing regarding the TaG update. They didn’t show any documentation regarding the decision, and the results of putting the weight on any of the motor packages.
See you at The Track,
Jim
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