Kid Kart Motor Solution

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  • #41399
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Let me start by stating that I was all for the supplied COMER motor program. That did not work out because Brad said the expense to make them equal would be too much. I along with others have been discussing this issue intently. To us the Honda does not seem to be the answer, to many hassles to go practice, unproven reliability, does not come with kart, I could go on but this post is about our solution. We would like to stick with what we have for the CSC kid kart program.

    I spoke the other day with Jim Bennett of Racers Edge, a local engine builder with no conflict of interest on this issue. He is willing to help us out (for a price of $60 per hr). This is how, we as a group (not some dictator) decide on parameters, HP, Torque etc, and then he runs them on the dyno (just him and the owner present). If they meet the spec then we seal them, if they don?t you cannot run that motor. This leaves our tech director with less work, all he has to test is carb, clutch, flywheel, fuel, and seals. We need to get together on this to make it cost effective, all at the same time; it is Jim?s busy season. If we do this, we could do up to four motors an hour. I as the class sponsor am willing to pay for the first 2 hours of dyno time. Let me know what you all think. If you are not comfortable with replying on the forum, please feel free to call me.

    Thanks for taking interest.
    Jay Jacobellis
    303.683.0333 d
    303.683.8106 e

    p.s. Even if you ?don?t have a dog in the fight?, please feel free to reply with your comments. As you can see by Brad?s posts, he isn?t stopping with kid karts, now he wants to change Junior 1 too, your class may be next!

    #53328
    Mike Jansen
    Participant

    I don’t have a dog in this fight but I want to say bravo Jay to offer a solution instead of the knee jerk response of whining (before we go there I am not saying that about you)

    As an outsider looking in I think that’s got merit. I do like the stock Honda option too. However, I think it was offered a wee bit late into the fray. Next year perhaps?

    Come on Comer parents, what say ye?

    And before you bust Brad’s chops, I think his offering a spec motor to eliminate cheating should NOT be looked at as a bad thing.
    Brad, how much profit is in it for you to sell a Honda engine? Probably not enough for the brain damage associated with this, am I correct?

    #53329
    Mike Jansen
    Participant

    @Jay Jacobellis wrote:

    To us the Honda does not seem to be the answer, unproven reliability,

    You’re way off base there. Since when has HONDA made anything that is unreliable?

    #53330
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Seens Jr.1 has been brought up, I have a “dog in this fight”.

    I LIKE IT! I WANT IT!

    It will be a huge money and time saver. I’m here for my daughter to learn how to race.(period!) Not just learn how to go as fast as possible, and hang on.

    By using supplied motors, I estimate I can probably save AT LEAST $2000 a year by not having to repair, rebuild, or replace and blueprint my own engines. I’m sure this will be a little different for each dad and class, and that’s just my “estimate” because this is only my second IMI season, and first CSC.

    $2000!…HELLO!……. That’s all the entry fees combined!
    (with money left over for the out-of-town races)
    10 sets of tires
    A new cadet chassis
    (put your big expense here)

    For me that means another kart for myself to take my Animal engines and go race Bobby for last place at the club races. Another entry and fuel purchase for Brad. More fun for ME.

    For the budget owner with a racer learning the ropes,
    THIS IS A NO-BRAINER!!!

    For the KidKarts, You are able to save the wear and tear of your more expensive race engine, and put that expense on Brad. Saving your good engine for Stars or Nations Cup or Super Nats or have a great practice engine.

    DUH!!!

    Russell Bezanson, father of
    Taylor Bezanson, Jr.1 Animal

    #53331
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Since when has HONDA made anything that is unreliable?

    Mike not very often, but Honda has produced ugly…. Element!
    This motor is not all the pretty either, intake in the rear and exhaust pointing directly forward… 😀

    What Brad is trying to do is very interesting, and I am not sure it is the business plan I would invest in, but basically he is taking on the motor cost, motor maintenance, and other motor issues onto himself relieving the parents of this duty and responsibility. Is this approach cheaper, easier or better than just teching the Comer motor? I don’t know…

    #53332
    Ben Schermerhorn
    Participant

    Good Idea Jay.

    Mike shouldn’t you be getting that heart beat down to 40?

    #53333
    Mike Jansen
    Participant

    Ben,

    Heart rate is sitting at 50 (gave blood today)
    Now as long as the kart will last the full 20 I’m set 8)

    I won’t speak for Brad but I THINK the supplied motor is a way of ensuring a level playing field, he saw it in his day when he raced. Now that he’s got control he’s using it. Am I wrong Brad?

    An accurate or efficient business plan? Jury’s out on that one but I think to extrapolate here: Removing one major factor of the “they’re cheating” to get more people joining the kid kart class means future racers up the ladder and then all track owners win. Or am I just too naive?

    Drew: I didn’t say anything about Honda’s and being ugly. Besides the Element they’ve had plenty of dull and boring cars. CRX, old cvcc/civic to name a few! However, underneath the skin in the engine bay is another story…

    #53334
    larry toby
    Participant

    This proposal seems more problematic than the Honda proposal. It seems like it will be more of a hassle taking an engine to a builder one has never heard of, located who knows where, for a dyno run. Don’t meet spec – find a new engine and come back. Repeat how many times? What if you do finally get a sealed engine then have to do some work on it? Back to the shop for another dyno run. Repeat how many times?

    For the life of me, I can’t understand how anyone would not be excited about the Honda proposal. It is low cost, less hassle, zero maintence. The motor is awesome. The only down side I can see is for Brad. The poor guy has to buy, check and maintain the things while everyone else just concern themselves with having fun.

    #53335
    Jay Luttrull
    Participant

    Jay

    We are only running the club races at IMI and we have decided to use the Honda motor. The question I have to ask is about the 2 CSC races at IMI If the comer motor is used and dynoed and sealed(which if that is what the CSC chooses how is everything going to be controlled?) We have gained 3 to 5 hundred rpm by just changing air filter not to mention oil fuel mixture with the comer motor.Are we going to be able to change the jets used? Please remember that the primary purpose of this class is to teach these kids good sportmanship, have fun and learning how to drive. Please Jay come out to the next club race at IMI and watch how close these kids are and realize that the Supplied Honda motor program is not as brad as it seems.

    Thanks

    Jay

    #53336
    swhannum
    Participant

    Compliments to the honorable gentleman Mr. Jacobellis for not only offering a viable alternative to the proposed supplied motor debacle but also for his volunteering to put up the first two hours of testing time. I will follow by offering another two hours of time and suggest that this test should be done regardless of the potential impact on the class although the intent is certainly to try and stabilize this issue. I?ll pay for two hours as well if just to satisfy my curiosity. I would also suggest that we take advantage of what NASCAR spend millions of dollars to learn and that is that we include a restrictor plate right from the start in this test. If you are wondering what this test will potentially prove, it in fact may not ?prove? anything. That?s not the point. The value of this test would be to legitimately illustrate the variation of a test group. The point then would be that by observing the % of variation, one could possibly and reasonably consider the other points of variation. For example, lets say that after this test it was found that under the same control measures, i.e. same carb, same restrictor plate, same jet, same gear, same fuel, same plug, etc. that the test group was all within 5% variation. To scientifically argue that this % of variation within the motors was relative to the outcome of a race, it would have to be potentially more variation than the variation that exists among each of and the aggregate of the other variables notable in this case: A. Ones ability to tune engine variables like jetting, fuel ratios, spark plugs, etc. There are 5 jet variables, at least 30 fuel ratio variables and reasonably 12 spark plug variables. That calculates to 1800 different combinations of engine tuning variables. B. Ones ability to choose and tune chassis variables, you can calculate this one. C. And finally the aptitude, talent, skill, maturity, motivation, enthusiasm, etc. of the driver. Just try and calculate those variables and don?t forget to multiply your answer by the number of days in the year and atmospheric corrected altitudes for each of the regions where the races will be held. So, does the total potential variation of these things outweigh the % of variation within the motors? (Insert honest answer here____________________________) You don?t have to be a scientist or a statistician to get a gut feel for the answer. In the event that one or more lie outside reasonable variation, either above or below, then a solution could at least be considered regarding those examples.

    Just in case we are not getting the point here its not to just through away all rules and guidelines because in the end they don?t matter anyway, no, it?s just that if you really take a scientific approach to this issue it never ends and if you think you can eliminate any and all variation within the equation and let the kids just battle it out, it can?t be done. Fair is fair and honest is honest and rules are rules but I don?t think it makes sense to take all of the tuning and driving variation away from us, that?s the race! What if supplied motors catch on for the other classes, when will anybody ever learn to tune, if and when they make it to IRL? Consider this, between the 1st 2nd & 4th place Kid Kart dads there is close to 100 years of motor sports experience. It?s not wrong it?s not unfair it?s just a coincidence. If you don?t run into them here you?ll run into them somewhere else or in the next class. Our first year we didn?t even finish on the lead lap until the last race of the season! He thought maybe he had won because it was the first time that nobody had passed him during a race? We celebrated! Yet we?ve watched first time entries bring in motors from all over the country thinking that the motor is the answer. How about the loose nut behind the wheel and the wing-nut turning the wrenches? I?m not insulting them I?m saying there?s a learning curve here and when we move up we?ll be starting over too! I have an idea, you know how hard it is to get youngsters up early in the morning, get them fed, get dressed, and get them to the track in a good mood? How about supplied drivers? Now that would save us some time. (Oh yea, it was for them in the first place?.)

    Also, to those who may say: How can you go wrong, wow I wish someone would buy me a motor, look at the effort and expense being made, he must really care. Like the saying goes: ?If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.? When you look at all of this it doesn?t add up, except perhaps in one way. If one goes back and looks at all of the posts coming from our motor host and what has been said in person and overheard by many, one may conclude that there is more of a personal vendetta at play here than any genuine concern for the class?

    Questions that will not be answered:
    – What is the percentage of factory rated performance variation within Comer 50s vs. Honda GXH50s?
    – Why were only host track drivers invited to participate in the ?rigorous testing??
    – What is the maintenance schedule for the supplied motors?
    – By what method is it determined that a motor is in need of a rebuild?
    – Why was an honest question regarding the format of the testing not only not answered but sarcastically brushed aside?
    – What are the reliability test results on a motor that will have to turn 7000+ rpm when the optimum operational rpm is 4300 rpm?
    – If the starter cord breaks on the pre grid will the race be held up so that the CSC sponsored pit crew can make necessary repairs?
    – If a motor does expire during competition will the driver receive a finish position equal to the position they held when the motor let go?
    – What are the brand names of the Kid Karts available without Comer motors, who are the dealers and what in the price?
    – How many Hondas will be available at any given track and if more karts show up for practice and/or a race than motors are available, by what method are the motors distributed?
    – If the carb is found to have dirt in it and damages the performance, will that heat or main be re-run?
    – Why were the participants in this class never officially polled for their input and ideas?
    – Why can you find 8-10 Comer Kid Karts on a given weekend at a track practicing and only find 3 split between two classes at an actual race the same week end?

    Faulty theories:
    – You can eliminate variation in engines.
    – You can eliminate variation in chassis.
    – You can eliminate variation in drivers.
    – You can eliminate variations in the environment.
    – You can legislate honesty, ethics and character.

    Thanks again Jay for your thoughts and ideas, bravo!

    Respectfully,
    Scott Hannum

    #53337
    Mike Edwards
    Participant

    I know someone who can answer all your questions……………..DR. PHIL

    Mikey

    P.S. You all better hope Tony Soprano’s kid doesn’t race, because I know how he would handle this!

    #53338
    Curt Kistler
    Participant

    To scientifically argue that this % of variation within the motors was relative to the outcome of a race, it would have to be potentially more variation than the variation that exists among each of and the aggregate of the other variables notable in this case:

    That one hurt my head Scott, and I have a college degree. Youch! 😕

    Good post, but hard to dance to.

    Hope you guys can work out all your differences and focus on racing again soon.

    #53339
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Mikey

    My kids do race, didn’t you know I’m in the program!

    Jay?

    #53340
    hotwheels1517
    Participant

    I have an idea thats used in other forms of motorsports. Make the comer 50 a claimer class. If on race day you think the winners motor is so much better buy it from them for $350 above the stock motors original price. I think going rate for a blueprinted comer 50 is motor price + or – $350. It would hopefully eliminate the throwing of big money at a motor. I think also it would prove to some that there kid was no faster than before that there is more to driving than just a motor. I would also be willing to do this in my kids comer 80 class at $1800 a motor. That is an actual cost that I pay for my blueprinted motors.

    Brian Moore,
    Father of Brandon #67 comer 80 and #77 novice shifter

    #53341
    Mike Jansen
    Participant

    Claimer class…
    Now that’s a good solution too, isn’t it? 😀

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