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This post is intended only to make sure all are aware of the changes resulting from the official rules for the 2004 CSC posted on Friday. Thank you Angie for getting us this published set of rules. Please do not ask for changes to these rules, as they have been posted un-officially since the 11th, and we are now only 6 weeks from the first race; people need to order equipment.
For 2004 the CSC is teching the Animal to WKA section 708 Stock with the only exception being it runs on gas. This means that any B&S jets may be used, and ground ?stock? cams meeting the profile limits may be used. As this will add 1 ? 2 HP to last year?s IKF gas Animal, this requires a blueprint (or at least a replacement of the factory broached cam) to run at the front.
Please inform all Junior 1 Dads you know who may not follow this forum. My hope is that nobody will be caught unprepared on April 4th.
Rod Whetstone
That’s sort of sad, Do you think the little guys need 1-2 more hp? They all ready don’t run restricters and don’t weigh any thing. The motor comes with a capable cam that now gets tost and replaced with a slightly better $74.00 cam. Why stop there you might as well let them run meth too.
No body would get caught unprepaired if the thing was ran like it comes.
You think next year the 8-11 year olds will need some more power, maybe we should just go right to a mod animal for them now?The Animal engine is very capable of running up front out of the box. You do not need blu printing and or after market cam, it just needs to be dialed in correct.
I have talked with Brad, J.B, Stacey and we all agree, the ground cams in the animal are OUT. The STOCK shapped cams are the ONLY cams that will be allowed in the CSC this year.
Track Owners.
We had a motor that didn’t run very well last year. 4 weeks ago I sent it to a motor builder to check it out and to build it per CSC rules. The CSC rules were posted, I faxed him the rules Friday, he put it together Saturday, mailed it today. Now I find out that the motor probably is not going to be legal, do to this new stock shapped cam rule. We only do this because it is fun, or supposed to be anyway.
Now what do I do.Bill
as per Doug’s comment, the rules have been updated to reflect the change to the Junior 1 and Junior 2 classes. The Briggs and Stratton Animals are teched by WKA section 708, exceptions being that they are run on gas, AND they must run “broached stock factory camshaft” NO grinding of cams allowed.
B Flemming and all,
My son runs the flathead. We own 4 of these, with two of them being Grand National caliber.
To set the record straight on this issue I will review the history. Two years ago people started asking to run the Animal. For last season it became clear we had to allow the Aminal or split the Jr 1 class into two classes (one for the Flathead and one for the Animal). So we decided to run the Animal on Gas per IKF section 715. This specifies gas, no jet change and a factory broached cam – no groung aftermarker cams. This proved to be ideal as this IKF gas Animal and the IKF methanol Flathead make the same HP. All were happy and we had competitive racing.
Then this year the CSC decided to go with WKA rules. I pointed out to Doug and Brad last fall that the WKA rules specify methanol, open jets and ground cams. They both assured me that the CSC would keep the broached cam in this year by making this exception to the WKA rules. Then the unofficial rules were published and I posted here pointing out that they did not add the exception mandating the broached cam. Again Brad told me this was a mistake, the exception would be added. Then the official rules were posted without the exception, and I put my Fltaheads up for sale and ordered a WKA Animal because there is no way the Flathead will have a prayer against a Animal with a ground cam. Period.
Yesterday I felt badly about the escalation of HP in the Jr 1 class (I estimate my son will do 57s at IMI with the WKA gas Animal – that is record lap territory for the old adult Yamaha light class I ran a few years ago), and I called both Doug and Brad to make triple sure they really want to kill the Flathead for this class and give the 8-11 year olds 1 -2 more HP. They said “No”, and now the broached cam exception has finally been added to the CSC rules.
So you see, we really are not making a change, we are avoiding a change, a bad change IMO. Now, I had to call up my builder and cancel my order, and others have apparently suffered inconveniences for the error in posting the rules and the subsequent change. This is a shame, but two wrongs do not make a right. It is the right thing to keep the Animal where we had it last year. 11 HP is enough for an 8 year old. If a 9 year old wants more power he can drive a 60 shifter at 16 HP
The WKA runs a 0.500 restrictor (8.5 HP) on the Flathead with 275 – 290 lb full size karts for up to 12 years olds. We have way more power/weight than that even accouting for our altitude (minus 15% in Denver). The IKF runs the gas Animal only with a serious restrictor for Jr 1.
I have no excuses as to how the CSC managed to allow the publishing of two sets of erroneous rules, but it is fixed now. Let’s pick up the pieces, move forward and realize this is the best for all involved.
Rod Whetstone
P.S. I can also explain the whole story on the Comer80 here in CO, but this post is long enough
You all seem to forget that we are running flatheads, Comers and Animals together. We decided at the meeting to allow the Animal to be able to change jets (unlike last year) run the stock broached cam (like last year), allow the flathead to run a billet rod (unlike last year) and to drop 20lbs on the Comer (unlike last year) to make the engine combinations more compatible. I wish everyone at the meeting were listening when this was discussed. You cannot compare every rule in WKA and apply it to our club when we combine engines and make our own decisions to run our format. Combing the engines was done to reduce the # of classes. This was all discussed at the meeting and should be no surprise to anyone except those who were not there, or those who had to much beer and pizza. Was I the only one at the meeting? Quit listening to rumors about what was said and what was not said. If you want to change the rules then come to the meeting we have every year, which is what it is for. I am sick of everyone accusing me and the other track owners of some sort of conspiracy. Fleming, come to the meeting next year and you can cry all you want about anything you want.
Karter Dad, If I can help you with the reinstallation of a stock cam feel free to contact me. I have a box full of stock cams that now can be used. For this year up dateing last years animal for any class in IKF or WKA would require a few parts changes, flywheel/rod/crank/shroud.
It is sad, and I too am caught with many out dated animal parts. The good thing about it is we are seeing Briggs making quick changes when a problem with the OHV is found. The flathead never got this much attention from Briggs in the past. This will net us with a better more dependable motor, yet at the exspence to those that did jump on to the animal wagon early on. The animal is still new and don’t be surprized when things have to be changed to try and make it a popular affordable motor to race with.
Us Briggs racers in Colorado demand more from it than any other area when Jr. class rules are changed to our liking. Last years rules that we used for the JR classes were no where to be found in the US, we used an adult IKF rule for them, that elimanated restrictors. I have not gotten a 04 WKA rule book, but I would bet that 708 section is an adult class referance on the rules that we are adapting to run the kids in. Just because this years season is upon us we are grasping for some kind of uniformity to run these motors under. I do think that who ever finaily made the decision to try and controll the modifications to the good little stock motor that is available out of the box, made the right call on using the stock cam that they come with even if it is a late call it should boost the fun factor up for those that have kids wanting to be involved in the sport with out having to buy a BP’ed motor.
My experiance with the animal 1, was that it’s design out of the box was great. The problems with them,flywheel/crank/rod/shroud wasn’t exsperianced untill I demanded it to make more power when switching to the ground cam and meth. The animal 2 will give the Jr racers the strength and dependability to have many hours of racing with out the exspence of busted parts from getting a couple more HP from the ground cam.
The foullessy that we need to follow somebodies (WKA/IKF) rules in order to be able to run other 4 cycle national events doesn’t cut it here in Colorado with the Jr classes, as no where do they run with out restrictors putting out 12 plus HP. Heck I am in favor of letting the Jr’s run mod animal as I would make some money from them then. But if I had a child running karts I would be worried about the speeds they would have to run to be competitive. I have fun @ 42 years old racing briggs stuff, does going faster always mean more fun?What the ?!@## is going on here?? With all do respect to Rod, who I have not meet yet, I am glad you are so close to the powers that be, but as a newbie I am not, and I am just following the “official rules.” Which turn out to be not that “official” at all and can be change for what every reason. In turn, I have no doubt that a justifiable excuse will be made for running the pipe on the 80cc comer too and these so called official rules will be changed again. Rod even you, said DO NOT CHANGE THE RULES. How could this oversight have occured?? I can understand how mistakes happen, but with so many people looking at this and obviously a few complaining about it to the powers that be how could the “official rules” come out with this mistake?? I know that I am running on emotions right now, but time and money was wasted on the “official rules.”
don
I hardly know what to say here. I am sorry. To all those that have been inconvenienced by this, I am sorry. I was trying to help by getting rules out, and I messed something up royal. If you look back, this cam issue was brought up right after the “unofficial rules” were posted, and I put the actual wording right out there for everyone to review. There were a few posts from Junior 1 parents, but not one track owner or Doug said anything about it on the forum. I spoke with Brad, I emailed him and the other track owners, and Doug. I modified the rules according to those discussions, and even sent it out for approval before posting. I thought I went through the proper channels – now I look like a fool. Especially since my son runs the motor in dispute. To be honest, I don’t care about the cam, only that we run what was agreed on by the Junior 1 parents at the meeting.
I have more to say, but won’t… I just had to say that I am sorry, as I was right in the middle of this one.
angie
Angie, you shouldn’t take the fall for this. This wasn’t your problem to begin with……Remember everyone we shouldn’t shoot the messenger!
I have both Juinor 1 & 2 drivers with 1 flathead and 1 animal ( GOD help me) anyway I can’t believe that we haven’t turned a lap under green flag conditions and I’m already sick of the 2004 season………
After watching last year and how fast these kids go the last thing they need is more POWER. They need more education on how to drive than just standing on the gas. My suggestion would be for some type of drivers clinic or class alot like what Doug and Curt put on for kart setup. The juinor classes shouldn’t be run as if it’s the F1 World Championship.
If you weren’t at the rule’s meeting and or didn’t ask and had your motors built based on what you thought was right who fault is that?
Mike Edwards
Ok, I would like to get some items clarified:
First, Angie because of you and your website I think this still will be a greatest race year for Junior 1s. Open communication is always a good thing. Everybody with Internet access will know what the rules are before the first race, and I expect that almost everyone else will too due to word of mouth. I hope that I have made it clear on the phone today that I truly appreciate what you have done for all of us. THANK YOU!!!
Now, I am not trying to start another firestorm here, but I just want to make sure that the major exceptions to the Junior 1 class rules are done. Brad I believe you are the leader and would you please respond to this. I have a few concerns from conversations with other Jr 1 dad’s, that could cause upset feelings at the first race unless addressed prior to race day events. I completely understand that we can’t cover every possible issue and situation and will have to address some in the future as they appear, but here are a few that have arise after I read the WKA Tech Manual and have had discussions with others at the track.
1) Are the same “CSC official rules” being applied to all track races or can each track owner modify them as they see fit for that race day?
2) Since I personally know of six 80cc comers running at Bandimere who plan on competing in the Junior 1 class and who all have the race pipes (expansion chambers). Are they going to be allowed to run those pipes or not? Basically are we following the WKA rules that require a stock exhaust or will there be another exception to the “official rules?”
3) If I am not mistaken, under WKA rules we are also allowed to adjust the timing on the Animal, section 708.28, is this going to fly as is or is this another exception? I base this on the fact that I was told last year you had to run the stock flywheel key, but according to WKA you don’t even have to run a flywheel key.
4) Finally, a more generic question regarding racing in two specific classes, Junior 1 and Kid Karts. WKA section 103.2.2 states, “If the competitor does move up an age group, he may not return to the younger group.” Now I was told late last year, the we could not run in both Junior 1’s and Kid Karts at the same time because it would be unfair, but can someone run only in Kid Karts for the CSC series and then only Junior 1s for track races? What are your consensus’s on this?
Brad, I hope you will respond, and let me state that what ever you and the other track owners decide upon, I and my son will follow and will not argue about the outcome. I have talked to several people concerning these questions and each has their opinion and is willing to wait and see what happens, but due to the heated cam issue, I believe it should be address before the first race begins. Finally, Brad I was at the meeting and did not drink any beer but did have a few pieces of pizza, (and BTW, thank you), but I did not hear any of this mentioned and if it was I am sorry for asking about it again.
Thanks
don
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