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Angie, we could still do the right thing and take the points away from that event, cheating is wrong and are we condoning it by letting them off twice?[/i]
Stacey,
that call would have to come from agreement with you, Brad, and JB. I don’t even know which karts were found questionable – or what was found.In my opinion, what happened in that class this year was worse than if there had been no tech at all.
Angie
I don’t know who cheated but if they were warned once before then why did they get away with it again?? Sam called Brad regarding the novice shifter, why not the kid karts? As Stacey said what are we teaching our kids, that cheating is ok, what about the parents and kids who play by the rules?? Plus what about this kid who lost the championship over this? It is my opinion that this needs to be corrected immediately, not next year “when we finally get organized,” but now to start next year off right.
How about Rusty Newberry for Flag Master, as mentioned before, and if no one steps forward for tech, I would suggest Brad Linkus . Just my two cents.
Stacey, Ang, Don, and Derek and all Others,
I sure hope it was not my kart(s) you were talking about. However, for those who are, let me just say something that I have been wanting to say all year. Since the beginning of the year we have put up with rumors and inuendo’s and I am tired of the BS. At Steamboat when the intake throat was mic’d and looked at by Darren on Alec’s kart it was perfectly legal. Alec( #3) finished in fourth place at steamboat , and you (Stacey)and Alex from DNA RACING teched and mic’d his kart again and found it to be legal. Now, we have been torn down and teched all year. You all looked at our kart’s in Grand junction,bearings, gaskets, pistons, rings, intake, clutches, etc, Brad looked at them at IMI, and mic’d the intake, looked at the piston, rings, etc. Again Brad looked at them at Bandimere and we were legal.Yet after every race there is more speculation and inuendos. We did not even realize we were the winners of the season until we got home from Steamboat and Calculated the points. If you look at the results all year my son Alec NEVER won a single race. He won the championship by constistently driving and finishing in the top 5. We even congratulated you all because we had thought Beau had won the Championship since Alec had spun in the last lap to finish fourth. I for one think my boys did a great job of driving this year. They don’t block, drive eratic, look behind them, bump or cause any unsafe driving on the track. NEITHER one of them have placed first in a single race all year long and you all want to complain. Have any of you realized this is their third year driving the same karts and my third year of tuning them and the chassis. EXPERIENCE!!!! it does wonders.
I am extemely glad that we are done with the kid karts and they can move on. I pity the parents moving into the class next year and the ones who were in it this year. Hopefully you won’t have to put up with this stuff next year. I remember when it was our first year and we went out and got our butt’s kicked. We didn’t whine that people were cheating we figured out how to drive and go faster. I am very proud of the way my boys drove this year and do not want their season tarnished by rumors and inuendo’s. STOP THE MADNESS!!!!!!!!! Don’t worry we will probably be at the back of the pack next year since they are moving into a different class. But if we get close to winning you all can start complaining againZipnby racers Dad
Rich,
I really think you have assumed too much on my part. My point is if anyone is caught cheating they should be DQ?ed? period. Heck Rich, you and your boys raced in this class, do you disagree with that? If a kid karter was shafted, in a race or for the CSC final points or both, when playing by the rules because another cheated what would you want the governing body to do? Rich, now let me make an assumption, I think I know you and your family well enough that if someone here does get DQ?ed causing your son to drop to 2nd you would understand and agree with it.I was only contacted about two issues at Steamboat, the Vortex reeds on an 80 and a chassis. I was not called on the kid kart class. It is a little late to go back and do tech now in my opinion, one person should have handled it and not throw the issue back and forth between people who were not educated enough or felt empowered to make a decision. That is the main reason for us wanting to have a tech director for the series so there will be no hard feelings or questions left open like this one days later.
Zipnby, first these are not rumors they are facts! When you were torn down at Grand Junction you were illegal! period, I made the mistake of not DQ you then because of the position we were in as track owners and parents of 2 of the kids that would of benefited from the DQ. instead I warned you and the other kart dad that was not legal that these motors better not show up again like that. Then at Steamboat you we check the clutches and intakes and again you are illegal!! Then the people trying to help with this are all the bad guys. Your kids are not only great drivers but great little kids that just want to have fun and race. I think the way it was handled in Steamboat was wrong, you should be DQed end of story. I really like you personally but am really pissed that you would put the kids, officals, parents in this position. THIS IS FOR FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can you guys share what was found wrong with these motors? Out of spec measurements, or aftermarket parts? What was wrong with the clutch? As much as people want to complain, the Kid Kart class has the clearest rules we have…
This class is for young drivers 5-7 years of age running Box Stock 50cc Comer engines. The ONLY changes that can be made on this engine are: axle gearing may be changed (89 tooth max),mufflers can be drilled, and the K&N air filter can be used. No other changes can be made to these engines. Minimum weight is 150lbs. Allowed tire compounds are Bridgestone YHC, Dunlop SL-4, Vega Red, Burris M30, MG Red, Maxxis HG3, and Maxxis HT3.
Looking ahead to next year, do we have to spell it out even more?
angie
This is precisely the kind of thing that drives someone new to the sport mad. I hate to say anything because I am new. However, it should seem clear to everyone that once an event is done it is done. There can’t be all this bickering days later. It serves no purpose but to tarnish and undermine accomplishments that kids have made (the kids are having fun but the parents are arguing). There should be an appropriate opportunity at each and every event to handle all issues, protest, etc. All those issues need to be settled THAT DAY. Right or wrong, the decisions are final. It would be appropriate, however, to have all the follow up needed to disucss changes in rules, procedures to prevent previous mistakes, consider new learnings, and such but not the second guessing of decisions made at an event that is done.
I sure hope that the “new and improving” CSC organization can do something to minimize these grey areas before my kids have to experience it. In this particular case, how can someone who is warned but not DQ’d at one event be DQ’d at another event? The application of rules and standards can’t be different from one venue to the next. If the circumstances are the same and you are warned at one event then you are warned at every event; if DQ’d at one event then DQ’d at every event. Consistency is the name of the game.
Larry,
You are right. Consistency is so important, and that is why we are forming the official organization. The rules need to be, and will be spelled out clearer – that is why I question where the weakness lies. I want to get it out in the open so we can address and correct it for the future. My asking what happened will have no bearing on the 2004 season, it is done. Another reason I have interest in this particular issue, my twins will be in the Kid Kart class next year. It has been a few years since our older racer was there, and I want to see this corrected sooneer than later. ALSO, I want to remind everyone that in almost every rulebook you do read, the #1 rule is almost always a “Spirit and Intent” rule. That rule is pretty clear, and needs to be enforced as much as any other. We keep harping on Safe and Fun, and that is what that rule boils it all down to. In the future, there will be clear rules, clear procedures, and the personnel responsible for enforcing those.
angie
Angie,
That sounds excellent. I wish you all the best in getting over the hurdles that lie ahead. I, for one, will do what I can to be supportive and helpful.
Larry,
Thank you. For now, just keep making suggestions and asking questions. Newbies, like yourself, can offer us some insight on some items we may overlook. For the racer or parent that has been around a year or more, you may feel like we have been through all of this before -only to see your ideas overlooked. … however, you must admit that this year was better than last, and now we have a giant step toward making future years lots better! Keep the ideas flowing! And, we do need to find people to fill our most vital positions….. any ideas?
angie
I think what is being contemplated with the organization of the CSC for ’05 is awesome. Track owners having the vision to band together to create a better, more organized championship will only help karting grow in Colorado. Growth is good for everyone. And its only human nature that people will want to be involved in something that is well-run, than not. I really applaud the thinking on this topic.
I think the class/engine discussion intersects with this goal in two areas. First, Having a logical progression of classes so that drivers can develop is a good idea. If you look at other sports, participants progress in a very logical way (examples are endless). People that check out our sport do have trouble figuring out where to insert themselves and what the career path is, so to speak. Second, To retain people in any sport, affordability should be a big concern. Going from class to class in karting seems pretty expensive. Kids start in 2 cycle engines (comers) then go to gas 4 cycle engines (animals) where they can stay through age 15 (junior 2 uses gas 4 cycles ?), but if they choose either the TAG or shifter route they are into a whole other set of potential engines. If they go senior 4 cycle they are into alcohol. A good example of engine re-use class to class would be TAG Jr to TAG Sr to TAG Masters (I believe) and Novice shifter to Junior 80, (as long as you have an 80cc motor). Point being, encouraging engine compatibility between classes would be a good thing for cost. Its cheaper to rebuild or adapt an engine than to sell it for 50 cents on the dollar and start over.
Speaking of tech in general (and not the Zipnby situation specifically), to have a meaningful championship, we have to have meaningful tech that is enforced, otherwise cheaters will prosper and the value of winning suffers. People that try to play fair get frustrated and innuendo and rumors fly. Not good for the sport. Championships get an asterisk * next to them and people whisper (“yeah, he/she won, but …. blah blah blah).
In my simplistic mind, it seems “cheating” (liberal use of the word) can take on two forms: deliberate cheating and ignorant cheating. Though deliberate cheating is more egregious, ignorant cheating can also enhance performance. In my opinion, Tech should generally be like dealing with some lifetime bureacrat in the federal government: dispassionate, objective, the rules are the rules. Period. “I am sorry if you didn’t know… I am sorry if your season is screwed… your engine isn’t right and you are not legal.” Sorry. That is not to say that there shouldn’t be discretion applied, but IMHO it should probably only be applied when in a gray area or the “cheating” is a non-performance enhancing thing.
@Angie MacEwen wrote:
Larry,
You are right. Consistency is so important, and that is why we are forming the official organization. The rules need to be, and will be spelled out clearer – that is why I question where the weakness lies. I want to get it out in the open so we can address and correct it for the future. My asking what happened will have no bearing on the 2004 season, it is done. Another reason I have interest in this particular issue, my twins will be in the Kid Kart class next year. It has been a few years since our older racer was there, and I want to see this corrected sooneer than later. ALSO, I want to remind everyone that in almost every rulebook you do read, the #1 rule is almost always a “Spirit and Intent” rule. That rule is pretty clear, and needs to be enforced as much as any other. We keep harping on Safe and Fun, and that is what that rule boils it all down to. In the future, there will be clear rules, clear procedures, and the personnel responsible for enforcing those.
angie
My son will also be new to the class and will most likely run his first event on Sunday. Now after reading all of this i am a little worried about the Kart. It is a box stock Birel with only the changes allowed by CSC. Is there anything else i should be worried about?
Stacey,
We have always enjoyed racing with your family. However your selective memory needs clarification. I will not stand by and let you tarnish our season. The corrected facts at Steamboat are:
1 When your brother Darren and Alex from DNA (an impartial third party teched our kart for a second time, which included a re-mic of the intake they were found to be legal. The other kids kart was in question because of the machine work done to the intake done by “Brad at IMI when cleaning it out” as quoted by the kids father.
2 When Darren asked if anyone had any problem with this and if not this is how it will stand. All the parents agreed and the matter was considered closed.
3. No other aspect of our karts, engines or clutches were in question.
4. If you had a greivance you should have mentioned it when asked at that time, or filed an official protest (to which not one has been filed all year , not one person has put up any money, just complaining. Which you admited that you were tired of “certain parents calling you complaining”) and had them looked at for a third time.
5. Somewhere in the rules for next year should be a statement on how to file a protest if you have a problem. Instead of calling the track owners complaining.
As my memory serves me you were accused of cheating in the very beginning of the season. (Go back to what you responded to in April after the first CSC race when all of this nonsense started) to which you and Dede both defended. Too which I applaud you for.
Now can we please move on and enjoy the season for what it was. Good friendship commraderie and “FUN” for the kids. Otherwise it just sounds like sour grapes.
Zipnby racers Dad
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