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Well another fun racing weekend. It has been brought up time and again by racers and racers parents “WHAT RULES ARE WE FOLLOWING AND WHAT ARE THE EXCEPTIONS”. If karting in Colorado is going to succeed then Colorado Karters are going to need a set of written rules we all can live by. I am bringing this up now since there was a protest brought against my son at Steamboat Springs resulting in a DQ. Since we switched from the 60 kawasaki to the 80 restricted honda my sons kart has been illegal according to SKUSA rules. I had used parts from a former kart racer that were put onto the stock honda cr 80 motor. Namely a set of reeds that are not OEM. It is sad that on an earlier occasion that we were DQed no one looked any further into our equiptment to make sure we were running by the rules. It however does not take from the fact my son Brandon did one outstanding job of driving today, and I know that those reeds were not the reason he won. He flat out outdrove his competition!!!! Anyone that saw the race and wasn’t looking for a few more points for there son would agree. Not to take anything away from Austin Farley congradulations on winning the novice 60 class.
Brian Moore
PROUD father of Brandon MooreP.S. Which parts of SKUSA’s Rules are we following next year ? All , part or ??????
The top paragraph of the CSC rules page states “Shifter classes will run SKUSA tech rules” Below that it states the exceptions.
READ THE RULES AND PROVIDE YOUR KID WITH A LEGAL KART. I DID.
We didn’t need the points, we were second if we showed at Steamboat or not.
Don’t try and pass the blame off on the tech person that DQ’D you the first time. Twice in 1 season. come on.
Bill
First and foremost we are not following SKUSA’s Rules. Case in point the Kawasaki 60 kart is to run on Bridgestone YHC and the 80/85 restricted is supposed to be on a harder compound tire, and to the best of my knowledge there is no exception listed on the Colorado Karters rules. So again provide a set of rules that are black and white. I do not belong to SKUSA and last I knew we are not running a sanctioned program. This needs to be corrected for next year. If we are going to be our own entity in the karting world the least we can do is provide a set of written rules, and no exceptions to those that are willing to participate in non sanctioned events.
The rules are in black and white. Download them and read them. Then read the line that states the allowed tire compounds in the CSC rules. Very easy and strait forward.
Mr. Moore, with all respect, why would you be running aftermarket reed valves in a 60 anyway. It is a stock class, and getting those reeds is very easy and cheap at any bike shop. If you have been DQ twice, then that shows that rules are being fallowed, but not by you.
I usually try to stay in a neutral corner with things that do not apply to me, however, this one hits too close to home to stay quiet. So excuse me while I voice my personal opinion.
We ran in the 60 novice class two seasons ago, and our campaign went very well until the Steamboat Springs GP. Matt had won all but two races that year, GJ crash and CRE lower end grenade. We had the RM SKUSA Region division in the bag. I could not find a KX 60 OEM piston so I bought a Wiesco piston and we went to the boat. We were not fast that day due to the Wiesco piston, but Matt out drove the field with his God gifted talent. Kept his motor running during a crash that took all the leaders out and we won the final. The competition felt they could find something not OEM in a 1994 KX 60 moto motor, and low and behold there was the Wiesco part. (Go figure) DQ, bummed out, Matt did not speak to me all the way home, and then the iron fist of our past leader came down with a 400 point penalty. In fact I think it was 410 or 415, just enough to allow the cry baby his championship.
I tell this story again because it hit us hard. I protested, bitched to everyone, and went into winter pissed off. I since have come to some understanding that there were written rules, even in black and white. I knew better, even though I felt it was very unfair in our penalty of point deductions.
We all got over it in time, and we will never again be DQ’d for anything that has been written and goverened. We have become better sports and try to help others, even in our own class, to run fair with free advice before the iron fist hits them in the gut. Sometimes they even listen, and sometimes they get the DQ.
The SKUSA rules are written in your class with respect to tires, OEM parts, porting, head milling, head volumn, exhaust restrictors… The CSC does follow SKUSA as determined by the teams over a year ago!
My opinion: Your kart was louder, faster, and down right not legal from my vantage point as spectator. Fix it, get over it, and go kick some butt the right way. Every other team in your class is playing fair and they deserve a level playing field at this age.
Curt Kistler
I am Brandon’s grandpa. I too am proud of Brandon. But, I’m concerned that this thread has become very acrimonious with suggestions that there was a deliberate attempt to ‘sneak one by’.
Remembering a past transgression: Brian made it clear to anyone who would listen that he had a restricted pipe from RLV (good with some sanctioning body?) when he found out that it was supposed to be a restricter plate from some special source (I don’t know who, but it has a serial number). He told many people before the race, including Angie and Ken. He had just switched from the 60, and didn’t know better in time to get one for the race. He broadcast his new knowledge so that know one would think he was trying to sneak one by. (We now have the restricter plate, and went back to the pipe that came with the kart. Just one restricter!)
There are many people at the track who have been at it long enough to know all of the rules, and understand how they apply too.
I can tell you for sure that I did not know that we were applying SKUSA rules across the board. I’ve heard that CSC was using WKA and SKUSA rules. I won’t pretend I know what applies to what. I still don’t understand how the Junior 1 class can contain Animals, Comers and TAG’s. I thought TAG’s were a class in themselves. (Which rules apply to Junior 1? Is it SKUSA, WKA, or maybe something else?)
As for the reeds in the CR80, I had never seen them before they were removed from the ‘stock’ engine by the tech. I don’t do the wrenching on Brandon’s kart, so I don’t expect to know much. But please, tell me this please. If this is the first time, only time, you saw the reeds, how would you know they weren’t what came with the engine. Brian is back in CA, so I can’t ask, but I doubt he was familiar with what they looked like either (although I assume he at least knew what they were).
I going to try an become more familiar with the rules over the winter, but since I don’t get my hands any dirtier than absolutely necessary, we as a team may still need the counsel of more experienced people.
Believe me when I say this! Brian and I were laughing at the $150/hr wages he would get for 20 minutes of work pulling the engine apart. None of us had a clue anything would be out of spec.
(And a last comment to lighten the mood. What the heck are the reeds anyway, and how do they work. They aren’t anything I ever heard of before! I assume they have some effect on the air/gas mixture. And they must move (like the mouthpiece on a woodwind), but I was afraid I would break them while I tried to figure it out. What do they do, and how do they do it? I somehow imagine they vibrate the air/gas to keep the droplets small. Right?)
Oh, and don’t wonder why I didn’t ask at the track. I’m so hard of hearing, and the track is so noisy, that I avoid long conversations that will tax the patience of people who aren’t used to me repeating, “I beg your pardon”, “pardon me”, and “would you repeat that”.
In hopes you will find a reason to chuckle, or laugh at me cause I can take it….. Derick
P.S. Anybody what to buy a ‘restricted pipe’?
Well I’ve already learned something by following links I just never paid attention to before. (It’s easy to be uninformed when you don’t know you are uninformed. 😉 )
I went to http://www.skusaonline.com/rules.htm and found out that you can’t get the SKUSA 2004 rules. That’s helpful!
And, I answered my question about the Animal/Comer/Tag competition. See this link: http://www.thecoloradokarter.com/bb/cscrules.htm
I was right for a change, the Tag wasn’t part of that class!
It would make sense for the venue/sanction body (CSC) to make the rule book available to everyone at the beginning of the racing season. When we were in IKF they mailed one out pre-season.At Steamboat, the tech didn’t have a rule book. In fact we spent over half an hour trying to locate one ourselves, first with the officials who didn’t have one, and finally with another participant who did.
When the tech made his ruling that DQ’ed my grandson, he did so without any documentation. Someone on the other end of a cell phone made the call! (We weren’t about to dispute the facts, having seen a ‘stock reed’ that Ken had in his backup stores, but I can easily imagine more dubious calls that should be backed up with a written rule.)
More than my two cents!
I think everyone is in agreement that we need to improve our rules and tech procedures. This is one of many reasons that the CSC is coming together as an organization and getting not only posiions, but procedures, in place.
We do have rules. They have been in every Colorado Karter newsletter this year, and can be read online here–> http://www.thecoloradokarter.com/bb/cscrules.htm. It clearly states that Shifter classes will use SKUSA tech rules, TaG classes by TAGUSA / SKUSA tech rules, and the rest (4 cycle, Junior 1, Junior 2, and Kid Karts) will use WKA tech rules. Any exceptions to these rules are stated below.
the SKUSA rules can be downloaded here –>http://www.superkartsusa.com/downloads.asp
I can certainly understand the frustration, and is why I choose to be a part of the CSC and continue to do what I can to make it better. I am starting a thread for suggestions for next year.
oh, and you can tell the reeds are not OEM because they were carbon fiber, and were Vortex reeds not HONDA, and they were installed wrong, which gave an additional advantage.
gotta get the kids to school,
angie
Angie or CSC powers,
This is one of many reasons that the CSC is coming together as an organization and getting not only posiions, but procedures, in place.
Don’t take this as a negative but simply as a question possibly even a suggestion. I know some of these ideas where mention at the beginning of this year’s series, but this new CSC organization with its hired personnel, and by the way this all sounds good, will cost how much more too each racer? Are sponsor going to pick up the additional costs or are the racers, or will it be shared? Realizing that it might be hard to put figures in stone; does anyone have a general idea what the new CSC race fees might be for next year if this all comes together? With the diverse back ground of some of our racers, maybe some will be willing with their time and resources to help write, print, and etc…… I would to help with costs.
Don,
Right now those questions are hard to answer. We (those working on organizing the CSC) are working on the numbers. The goal is to not have to increase the cost to the racers by much, if at all. The track owners (Brad, JB and Ann Louise, the Cooks, and Jim Keesling when his is done) with the help of individuals like Sam Walls, are in agreement to work together to get this going NOW. It is different from the last time, where things were discussed but not acted on. We are acting on it now. So, there are no hard figures, but there will be lots of information released soon.
Anyone interested in helping should let me know by email. Sponsorships are available for classes and other things, so any one that wants to contribute certainly can. Contact me for more info
angie
That was about all I understood about the parts, that it was Vortex and not Honda.
I don’t know from fibre, but I remember it being retangular and symetrical. It didn’t look to me that you could put it in wrong. The tech didn’t mention that it was wrong.
Was it upside down or 180 degrees out?
I found a picture at http://www.racearsenal.com/cr80cyl.gif but I can’t tell much from that. I don’t think upside down is possible either.
I did find that the Vortex is a lot more expensive, so I have no problem believing that it is supposed to give some advantage. But with my limited experience, it seems to me that a restrictor plate choking off the exhaust side would mean you could only use so much air and gas before you reach ‘saturation’ anyway.
Would anybody like to explain how the thing is supposed to work and how it could be put in wrong. We don’t have the Honda part yet, but if there is a wrong way to put it together, we might just do it without knowing better.
I can’t figure out why it is there in the first place. It seems to me that it is just there to slow down the air/gas mixture coming from the carb. Why would Honda want to do that? There must be another explanation! Is this a Honda only thing, or do others do it too?
Oh yeah, and to answer the suggestion that we get over it, we did before we even left the track. Brandon never was upset, he doesn’t follow the points, and his trophys are just dust collectors at my sons house (and Brian doesn’t dust 😉 )
Derick
The reeds in an engine prevent the fuel mixture blowing back through the carburetor. The reeds are a check valve. The reeds are also a restriction to the flow in the engine. With this in mind the type of material and thickness of the reed changes the flow characteristics of an engine. Stiff reeds work better for more bottom end, thin reeds or lower stiffness work better for top end. The reed cage design also has an effect on flow
The stock reeds are a compromise between the two extremes.
All reed valve engines have them. Some designs of 2-stroke engines use the piston as the valve (piston port) others use a steel valve on the crank shaft with the carb mounted on the side (rotary valve). Most 2-cycle engines on motorcycles use reed valves. I was the one that Sam called on his cell phone about the reeds in your engine. I have a copy of the SKUSA rule book and answered Sams question about the legality of your engine, which I had to answer that the rules state the reeds must be OEM. The rules are online at the SKUSA website under “download files”.That was exactly the kind of an answer I was hoping for. I kept looking at the racearsenal.com picture, and thought that it might be acting like a valve, but couldn’t reach that conclusion because the reed looked so clean when they pulled it out. I would have expected to see at least some small evidence of burnt gases. (And, I’m surprised to see plastic so close to the cylinder.)
Angie noted that she thought the reed was improperly installed. I didn’t see a way to do it wrong (and I probably wouldn’t have recognized it if I had been looking for it.) Do you know what she meant?
Please don’t read to much into my comments about the absense of rule books. I was trying to show how scarce they are. Usually when we ask a question about rules or specs, the answers are general enough to leave doubt about the validity of that answer. I think most people are of the impression that the rules are a low priority and can be relaxed if you have the right amount of ‘influence’.
I don’t generally hear (bad ears) much of the gripeing that goes on at the track, but I’m aware of the ‘flexibility’ that allowed illegal kid karts to take trophys last Sunday. And that these were the same karts that were illegal at Grand Junction a while back.
It really is poor policy to let any variance from the rules stand. If I knew that there was violation overlooked, then just about everyone knew it. We aren’t upset that the rules were enforced, rather quite the opposite. Although we wish we had known earlier, at least we know now.
I guess you could say that our only complaint about the process was the attitude of the ‘challenger’. It wasn’t the challenge!
Derick, I totally agree with you they should have been DQ’ed this last weekend in Steamboat, that was the second time for one and the rule should of been inforced. If you look at the final point standings it cost a kid the Championship. What are we teaching our kids by cheating? This is going to be a pretty bold statement but ANYONE CAUGHT BLANTANTLY CHEATING AT GJMS WILL BE BANNED 😡 !! PERIOD. This is for fun not some world championship or huge amount of cash.
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