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It’s nice to hear all of this being discussed.
I raced yesterday and had a blast. My 3rd race ever-2nd Rotax event ever. I finished…which in Tag/Rotax Masters is half the battle. I made it through turn 1 because of smart patient driving. I pulled my best times ever on Mojos because of lots of practice. I’m new. I dont expect much. To beat Jim Keesling made my day. I look up to Jim so for me it was neat. Jim was faster then me however. He was off track a few times. I even let him through once! It was a tough race.I had my best friend Jesse show up to do some recon. on the filming/video side of things as he is working with Jim and staff on getting the Grands televised etc. We had an over the shoulder POV camera on my ItalKart Rotax Masters and a helmet cam on Ben Schumerhorns CRG 125 shifter. We also had a camera running from a distance. We have lots of footage from yesterday. Needless to say after the Masters turn 1 debacle-lots of folks were wanting to SEE what happened. Soon Ian was there and pulled aside Matt and Jesse to look without the commentary from others. I have seen a little bit and will analyze more later. Film is the great equalizer-people tend to THINK they did one thing but the film shows otherwise. I’ll do what I can to get the link up so everyone can see.
Anyway it was a great day all and all-I learned more about blue flagging then I knew before. I was being overly nice. Part of the reason is that I wanted film content, not a broken kart with no footage. There are some drivers however that dont get it! They need talking to. They dont understand and they’re very dangerous. They put everyone else at risk in a sport that is already dangerous. The film shows without naming names.
I think in this case the person/kart is confused. I know I had some close moments. When I saw more then 3 karts in front of me 2 wheeling on various corners I was a little concerned. Tune your karts guys! Test your karts at the Track where you’ll be racing. Know a little bit about what your kart is doing. Get off if you dont feel good about it-at least go down the hot grid lane. My power valve assembly blew completely off in practice-why I have no idea? I went through the whole assembly the night before with a fine tooth comb…I guess the comb wasnt fine enough. Loctite aint a bad invention. The screws backed out within 2 laps. I heard a different sound and planted my ass in a safe spot and waited for practice to be over…hoping someone found the whole assembly-thanks to the guys that had it and gave it back.Lets be as safe as possible-the alternatives aren’t worth it.
Thanks to Angie, Ed, Matt, Ian, Carolyn and all the rest that made yesterday a day to remember. But mostly I want to thank Jim…
you’re alright Jim!
“so is this what club racing is all about???”cheers, j
Joe:
When I came up on you I was wondering what the heck the black thing off your kart was, good job and it was a pleasure racing against you.On topic: I started from LAST in the heat race yet I came through the field to take 7th. I was rewarded 6th because of a DQ due to weight, I’ll take 6th to start my main. And that dispells the myth that Centennial is a difficult place to pass. Action is our Monaco, every other track here in Colorado is passer friendly.
Then the fiasco in the main….
Like AJ Foyt told me years ago (and it’s been repeated many many times): The Indy 500 was never won on the first lap or first corner, but it’s been lost many a time because of it!I feel for the Rotax qualifiers that were affected by the outcome of the first corner. It will have serious ramifications later in the season when a few qualified and talented drivers have to watch from the sidelines because of this race and they fail to qualify for the Grand Nationals. I for one passed more karters than I care to imagine yet I didn’t bump per sey and I passed cleanly. (Feedback please) A few wild passes? Sure, but I was thinking “what if” if someone ahead of me did something completely unexpected.
Most the racers I know love F1, Indy, Champ Car and are lukewarm for NASCAR. Yet a lot of you race your open wheel karts like it was NASCAR! I’ve yet to see a professional open wheel race conducted like we do at our karting tracks because of the consequences of an accident.
Perhaps if we instill the “you wrecked it you pay it” attitude things would change (Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight). Better yet, let’s have a vote from your peers and you know what the winner takes home? A big “K” to put on your plates denoting that you’re a knucklehead and then everyone’s aware you’re a knucklehead. Even better (now I’m on a roll!) We’ll hand out corks to the knuckleheads so that the next time there’s a drivers meeting about rules it won’t go in one ear and out the other. There’s hope it’ll sink in.All I know is I’ve got a slightly bent sidepod nerf bar that needs replacing. At least I got untangled from the melee to continue on. When someone goes to the hospital because of a first corner, first lap melee (or their kart’s destroyed) let me be the first one to say, “I told you so.”
So again I’ll say it (because perhaps one of these times it’s going to sink in):
It’s a 20 lap race, you can only lose a race in the first corner and first lap.If you want to see some good, close, clean racing…. watch the Mini Max class race!
and thanks to JJ, we have one example on tape!….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_XdzZ3visMSeriously, though, you guys should know that the corner workers are paying attention to rough driving. They have radios, and I hear them talking about watch this # or that #, or whatever. They don’t have eyes in the back of their heads, but they are trying to do the best they can. Safety is always top concern. I believe there were some verbal warnings given out after some races, too, so don’t think that it all goes unnoticed. That is not an easy job, standing out in the weather and being 110% alert for 10 – 12 hours. Don’t get me wrong, there is always room for improvement, but I wonder how many of you would take a turn in their shoes for a race day!
I try to do my part to keep the track workers aware of who is on the lead lap, etc. It makes it much easier to do so when everybody has bold, clear, readable numbers on all 4 sides of their kart! If the number on your kart doesn’t match the results posted.. please let us know. We use those to grid, and to follow the karts on the track. It is important to check the posted results and make sure that the info is correct. Also, we had a few duplicate numbers out there. For instance (not to pick on anyone) the #69 is popular, and we had 2 of those in the 125 shifter class. If you plan on racing often in this series, please consider making your number unique to any in your flight (not just your class).OK, while I am at it, there is something else that adds to the confusion. That is when someone’s transponder isn’t picking up. The transponders that we provide is a convenience for the racers. At this event, we had a whole case that wasn’t charged well, and were going dead. Thank you so much to all of you that had to keep bringing them back to charge in between races. Everyone needs to remember to check their transponders before each run. If it is not blinking, it will not pick up. I do my best to manually score those – but that is one more thing to keep track of. I can’t do that in qualifying, I try to verify that everyone is picking up, but with 20+ karts on the track, it isn’t always easy. And by the time I figure out who is missing, and get them in to get a new one, that much time of Qualifying is gone.
Just more things to think about!
:sun:
The race directors and corner staff have got tough jobs and deserve a lot of credit for supporting this sport. It is also a tough call to black flag someone for being careless.
I expect that 90% of the driver never intend to nerf intentionally and 70% probably don’t nerf. But 10% make this more dangerous than it needs to be and the other 20% need to get their knuckles hit hard (as in DQ or losing 5 laps) to let them know they are driving way outside their abilities.
Yes, drivers are optimists and tend to push but some go beyond what is reasonable and others treat karts like closed wheel vehicles. Without consequences for actions, intentional or just bad judgment, the wrong actions get rewarded. Verbal warnings are a waste of time.
At IMI consequences were made very clear. It seems we should spend more pre race time talking about the black flag rather than blue. I mean you are still supposed to keep a line with the blue and if the person is that much faster it is still their responsibility to pass you. Should not be a problem. But nerfing or “overly optimistic” driving can take out the best almost as easily.
Perhaps this will change when the best drivers are sitting on the sidelines for the nationals.
To all, thanks for showing up and making the event a great one.
Two things here from my point of view. This is supposed to be a club race. The numbers are larger than the CSC and the level of playing is just as high. Now throw in to the mix, a seriers for qualifying for a National Event. Next, add 1/2 of the field new to karting.
Now, we have three very different levels of racing all in the same event. No one could have predicted this two months ago.
Because it is a “club” race, it is the place where you are suppossed to get your feet wet. However, the driving styles are very unpredictable from a new driver. Throw into the mix, faster drivers with a goal in mind later in the season. This is what we get.
IMI has not had the qualifying race yet, but it is coming up next.
Last year, at our club races, we didn’t have any of this. JJ, we go over the flags at our drivers meeting, however, I didn’t see you there Sunday. We also covered the notice board at the start finish line with the kart number who was black-flagged to come off the track, but you missed that also. I’m happy that you pointed out the rules and the word “intentional.” I will make room for you (paid, lunch, drinks, headset, radio) for July 15th so you can show us the difference between “intentional” and “accident.”
For many of you that know me, I will not answer a question that begins with “what if…?” JJ, come on out and do “What is…” and make the black flag call. I got punted, nerfed, hit, runover, whatever you want to call it twice on Sunday. Both times, The drivers that hit me came over, said he was sorry and explained why or what happened. Each time, it was an unavoidable accident. (we are racing) I knew that. However, your point of view we should black flag the driver that used his brakes too hard by accident and someone hit him, or was he following too close? (once agin, we are RACING). I am NOT saying bumping is OK.There was an incident that I feel is cause for dismissal from The Track. We all know what it was, and it is under review. The driver has the experience to know better, but “racing” clouded his judgement and bad things happened. This was “intentional” and easy to point out. Being a racer myself, I have to stand behind Matt and Ian for any call they make, as they are the eyes on the track. No one is 100% perfect, but they try, and they try HARD.
That is why I ask you JJ to come and stand in their shoes. I race my kart to stand in your shoes, to know what is happening out on the track from a “racing” point of view. The two sides are VERY DIFFERENT. Bench racing, bench flagging , and “what if…” is really, really, really easy.I feel for the racers that had to sit in the infield. I feel bad for the accident in the shifter class. We all learn from all of this to make the racing better, safer and more fun. But one flag can’t stop bad driving. The bad driver has to change.
Maybe next year, we have a minimum number of races, or a driving/racing school for the new racers to get their feet wet before entering a big event. Becuase the “club” race has now become a “big” event.
Don’t get me wrong, it’s all good. It’s just a big learning curve for all of us.Happy FAST, SAFE, SMART racing to all in GJ for CSC number two…
Jim
After watching some of the races and participating in the shifter race I see some passing in spots that should not be done “matt Burton a much faster driver than myself waited a couple laps found a passing point and past me safely” THANK YOU I knew you were there…….WE are not racing for anything but a trophy and fun If you do not feel confident and safe about a pass don’t do it
I can not comment on most of the incidents this past weekend but I did see the one that put Don in the hospital. From my angle, it looked like a racing accidnet. Two guys trying to get the same piece of ashphalt at the same time.
I can follow up a bit on Jim’s. We do have very different levels of skill out there in most of the classes. For some, this was their first event. For others, they really are national level drivers. In the Tag classes, a driver who is two or three seconds slow can in fact hold up a much faster driver unintentionally. He can be very difficult to pass and there can be unintentional contact.
For example, a slow driver often is not consitant in their drving line. Often they are early or late at turn in or they slow more than needed. Yet they come off the corners at full throttle. The line they use in the corner disruptes the momentum for the faster driver turning the pass attempt into little more than a drag race. Given the relativly equal nature of the engines, this can be very difficult. It is not uncommon for the faster driver to bump the slower guy at both entrance or exit. It is not intentional, but it happens.
This leaves the race director with a very difficult job of determining if it was intentional, which is illeagal, and what was unintentional. Now the reputation of the drivers often becomes a factor. Many of the better drivers who unintentionally bump a racer will appologize after the race.
To try and enforce a no contact rule would be next to impossible and additionally, would not fully prepare the drivers for the next level of competition. It would be nice if we could seperate the drivers by skill in addition to engine packages but do we have that much time in the day?
Right now we are suffering from the problem of too much sucess. It’s great that we are getting far more racers than we thought at the start of the year. Reducing the CSC to 5 races, combining the club series in to one has exploded the numbers. It is what we hoped would happen but never dreamed to this level it would happen.
Let me post a somewhat different viewpoint. I am one of the newbies running in RMax Masters – the biggest field of the day by far. I have some tin-top experience, but this was my first actual kart race. I was very fortunate to make it through the first corner melee in both races. As an aside, I support EVERYTHING Mike J mentioned above about lap 1 turn 1, c’mon people!
OK, back to my point. From my perspective, the folks I was racing against were fantastic! In the main, I ended up in 6th place by managing to avoid the T1 carnage. I was 1-2s slower than the fast guys out there so I knew it was only time before I had them on my tail. When I heard karts behind me, I tried to drive as consistently as I could and hold good lines. They were behind me for a couple of laps, which must have been frustrating, but I don’t recall being bumped/nerfed or subject to other debatable driving techniques. They were patient and eventually got by. Cleanly and safely. No drama, just good courteous driving. From my standpoint, (ignoring lap1 T1) the TaG Masters folks were great to race with. :clap:
As for the flaggers, what an outstanding job! They were great with the blue flags and fast and accurate with the yellows – THANKS GUYS! :cheers:Having said all that, if “racing incidents” just happen to always include the same individual, then maybe it’s time for them to have a little chat with the organisers – you regulars know who those individual are 😉
As always, IMHO
p.s. I really need to get a helmet cam. Seeing Jim fly ~1ft off the ground at the top of the hill was…um…interesting. How straight is your chassis Jim?
@Doug Welch wrote:
For example, a slow driver often is not consitant in their drving line. Often they are early or late at turn in or they slow more than needed. Yet they come off the corners at full throttle. The line they use in the corner disruptes the momentum for the faster driver turning the pass attempt into little more than a drag race. Given the relativly equal nature of the engines, this can be very difficult. It is not uncommon for the faster driver to bump the slower guy at both entrance or exit. It is not intentional, but it happens..
Doug and Jim are right (and so is Angie in a previous post) I think the staff are doing an EXCELLENT job and kudos to you all! They have to look at things happening at real time and that’s tough.
I can’t speak for others but I for one DO think the “what if” situations before I put my visor down when I’m in my seat. It prepares me for some of the crazy moves I made and the crazy driving styles of others; Last corner apex pass and an evasive move not to bump the slower kart in front; more momentum coming off turn 1 and “timing” the pass from the jump to the next corner etc. It’s not easy especially when you have a mix of engines and tires and driving ability.
I’m glad people come up and apologize for an overly optimistic move. That’s called professionalism. If your not that’s called arrogance and you’ll always be an idiot and you’ll not have my respect. Period.
Again, we have to consider the success we coloradoans are having here. 120+ for a club race? Many race series can only IMAGINE and WISH numbers like we have. And with that rapid success comes growing pains, plain and simple.
Let me reiterate and put another way my thoughts: Being aggressive is what a racer does. Knowing when to be aggressive is what a Senna, Schumacher, Villeneuve and Bill Elliott do. When you’re causing wrecks and wrecking yourself then your an idiot like Paul Tracy. Plain and simple. Aggressive talent and Aggressive idiot are NOT synonomous.
Why is it the Shifter class (with equal amount of entries and varied engine combinations) and the DD2/4 Stroke class can get around the first corner unscathed? Did they bump a bit, did they rub sidepods? Yes, but they know when to back off because they’re more intelligent drivers.
We should just call the TaG Masters class, “the idiots the specators love to watch for 20 laps.”
Doug hit it right on the head. The mix of new drivers and national caliber karters will only increase the incidents but is a fact that people have to deal with.
Club racing and karting is not the only open wheel racing that involves accidents. Look at Star Mazda. They are always yellow flagged as there is accidents all the time.
While I agree the Vet drivers need to be a little more patient, the new drivers need to be a bit more consistent. Say one of the quickest drivers in the class has a mechanical problem in the pre final and has to start at the back of the pack. He is 2 or 3 seconds faster then 1/2 the field. He is there to win the race. The reasons he is faster is 1-Braking, 2-corner speed, 3-exit speed. These all work together to setup passes.
You get a run on a guy that is 6 lengths ahead of you onto a straight. You catch his bumper at the end of the straight. Then, the new guy brakes 30 feet early. There is no place for the faster driver to go. He is caught with too much speed. He can not go to the inside as he is still behind the kart in front of him and would cause a wheel to wheel wreck which is even worse. This is unintentional but will cause a bump.
Now the Vet driver did nothing but drive the same line as he always does. He did not “slide job” the guy to cause an accident but still makes contact. It would not be fair to the Vet driver to get penalized for that bump because he was only driving the race line. The kart in front slowed early and the rear kart ran out of room. Where do you look at these incidents and decide who is to blame?
Now, the guy that is punting people all over the track all weekend needs to be kicked out of the series until he understands what he is doing. Chances are however, that guy is new to racing, has found speed quickly, and does not know how to use it. A prime example of it happened this last weekend at STARS in the ICC class. A kid coming from JICA was running in the to 10 all weekend but was hitting everyone out there. It was apparant he was driving over his head with 120# heavier kart. I believe he was penalized for it. None the less, it happens everywhere.
I have seen tracks and series make the newer drivers wear an X on their helmet and rear number plate to show the faster drivers who they are. Maybe this will help. I know when I come up on a driver with an X on him I take it very easy to get around him. Maybe someone should implement that rule for first year drivers or drivers that qualify over 2 seconds slower then the majority of the field. I know some people would think they are being pointed out for being slow but it would truly be for your safety. Just a thought.
Last but not least the comment about “only racing for a trophy”. Racing is racing. I do not know about you but when I race or any of my friends race, we race to win. Second place sucks. I do not care if you want to race mopeds to the corner store against me. Be prepared to race because I hate to lose. With the majority of the people going to kart races wanting to win you will have accidents. If we can teach the knuckleheads that wreck everyone how to properly race, the incidents will go down and the weekends will be enjoyed much more by all. Just remember, things happen very quickly in karts. Most of the time, accidents are the fault of noone. Just a race incident.
I have not been to the races this year but know what everyone is talking about. The beginning of the year brings out these posts every season. The guys that are involved in the accidents and post these will be the ones giving advise to the new drivers next year. It is an ongoing process.
I will see everyone in GJ in a few weeks:
Richie
@RBI wrote:
I have seen tracks and series make the newer drivers wear an X on their helmet and rear number plate to show the faster drivers who they are. Maybe this will help. I know when I come up on a driver with an X on him I take it very easy to get around him. Maybe someone should implement that rule for first year drivers or drivers that qualify over 2 seconds slower then the majority of the field. I know some people would think they are being pointed out for being slow but it would truly be for your safety.
I’ve been saying this for two years now. Who do I pass corks to so it doesn’t go in one ear and out the other. I’ll even supply the red duct tape to make the “x’s” ….
Or the letter “k” for the knuckleheads…
As I said earlier the track officials are to be commended for staying out there and doing a tough job. I know, I do it for RC Combat and Pylon racing where your are flying planes very close around you at 150mph. One mistake and someone gets impaled. I also was a race marshal at top level RC car racing back in Chicago. Less at stake but tactics, lines and the difference between experienced and newby racers might have been even more obvious as you could see more of the track in your field of vision.
As I’ve also stated Many times there will be bumping in racing just due to inertia, someone braking in front of you hard or just plain hitting some dirt kicked up on the track that causes you to lose grip you thought you had. It is when someone is driving way past their ability or too aggressively that they need some reigning in. Yes it is a Very tough call to make. It requires you to watch the follower, not the leader, and in many cases you can’t tell what happened. You have to watch trends. It is even more difficult when we have some many different levels and classes racing together.
I was not out this weekend because I was ill Friday and only felt so so on Saturday so didn’t practice / tune and felt I might be iffy on Sunday and was more likely to cause an issue than have a good race. Being a pilot I take full mental and physical preparedness very seriously. I took myself out because I wasn’t fully ready to race.
What is distressing is the attitude of many to try to win on the first or last lap, much less the first turn. As others have stated a good driver will spend some time learning how to pass someone and not crawl up their rear as soon as they can. They have got plenty of laps to do that. And if you do leave some space to observe and learn a good line and the newby brakes too hard then you have the space and lane to run right past them. Too many drivers here haven’t learned lines and patience in passing. I know the latter and strategy but don’t have the experience and skill in this form of racing to put it all together yet.
Having an X isn’t the solution because a smart driver spots and knows the slower drivers before the race begins. Perhaps you need to split classes and licenses to have A, B and even C mains. That would allow success to grow and would keep the best drivers from losing out due to inexperience or overly aggressive driving.
What I find amazing though is that watching the Mini Max or Intl RMax videos you see great driving. Pushing hard but nothing unreasonable.
I wish we could get some of that sense and balance into all of the classes. I know this is hard to do, but we have some smart and dedicated people in this group. A first turn pileup should not be that bad!JJ,jj
What I find amazing though is that watching the Mini Max or Intl RMax videos you see great driving. Pushing hard but nothing unreasonable.
I wish we could get some of that sense and balance into all of the classes. I know this is hard to do, but we have some smart and dedicated people in this group. A first turn pileup should not be that bad!Your theories are impeccable. The 1st corner “pile up should not be that bad” I agree with. Honestly, we’d take, we’ll any other engine package to get through turn one” (there are so many available) I wish we could see front running performance from you in kart racing, then weigh your opinions accordingly. JJ. I’ve also flown R/C in competitive environments in the past, can’t really think of too much that actually relates to this conversation. Other than the fact you may have spent 30 – 50 G’s following a particular series for hopes of getting in the big one” for your chosen sport. I did spend quite a bit to be competitive in an R/C environment, (helicopters) to be competitive on the big stage. And spent some of my time with individuals who could buy myself, or our track owners a couple times over, (sorry Jim) They had big $.
My driver is clean and will race you to the bare bone if called for. We were where you are 5-6 years ago and appreciate your comments. If it was closer to the heart and soul of what we do, it would be given more weight for us. But this has much more at stake. It’s just not the same place. Not knocking where you are.
You are a very nice man and the consummate “club racer” and I look at everything you post in that light. Unfortunately JJ. we are at the other end of the grid than you. (hopefully that changes in the next year or two) and the perspective is different, as the National level R/C flying is. And moving forward, you can make a positive impact on racing here. It takes respect to get others behind you in word, or example!
Rick
JJ,
Guys, this was Jamie’s thread, not mine. I missed this last race and found it sad to hear about the pile ups, and to hear about them from Jamie who obviously has a lot of credible racing experience. Doug’s comments from the first race this year holds a lot of weight too.
You cannot really know what is happening in a race while you are part of that race. You need to be focused on your race. You also have no idea on how well or poorly you are driving during that race as you are focused on driving the best you know how. I doubt a serious competitor knows when they were driving beyond their limit or out of control as they are trying to stay on the edge whether they have raced 10 time or 100 times.
That is why it is important for the race officials to be clear, direct and not particularly lenient. I’ve gotten docked points in National RC Combat events and although I thought I was inside the line, I had to accept that I screwed up knowing if it happened again I was DQ’d from that whole competition (2 strikes at any point in the day and you’re out).
In the racing I observed, either from the pits or after being punted to the infield I have seen some great driving and some bone headed driving. The video I made of Mini-Max and Intl RMax showed some really nice driving. Not Senna like driving, but pretty nice for regional racing.
When barely half the field finishes and half of those were pushed off the course, there is a problem. It doesn’t require years of experience and 50+ races to figure that out.
It is obvious we have issues and I’d rather that people propose ways to finish races with 90% of the starting field and where the other 10% have self inflicted DNFs. There will still be some bumping and there will still be some injuries and risk. That goes with the territory and I’m fine with that.
Races are not as competitive and don’t improve skills when people are randomly nerfed off the course while the nerfee finishes. At IMI the RD made it clear that if you nerf someone off the course you are DQ’d. That is a tough call to make, but it makes perfect sense. The judges and Race Directors have tough jobs because it is real time and they can’t watch every kart go past their corner. In an ideal world with an unlimited number of turn marshals the problem could be resolved during the race. Perhaps our best solution is to film videos and give the race officials a top 5 list to watch and be ready to black flag for the next race.
So Rick, Tom, are you saying everything is peachy?
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