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Thanks Rick, I looked for a while and could not find the answer, just did not look hard enough. Are these karts being phased out of TAG or just not fast enough to keep up with the others?
Tom Dennin
Also, I remember the weight being changed on the Sonik during the season after the first race in Grand Junction in 2005. So to say that won’t or has not happened is false.False?
If I’m remembering and reading this correct, (see link below) it’s not false. TagUsa made a mid season (July 1st) revision implementation. Again, I didn’t think it would be right to whip a weight change on you guy’s mid stream. And don’t think it’s right now. Even though Lee was pretty dominant in Masters at that time. You can google the 2005 rules.
Mid-Season Tag Weight Changes…Not!!
http://www.thecoloradokarter.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1557&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0Rusty Newberry
PostPosted: Wed 06 22, 2005 1:57 pm Post subject: Mid-Season TAG Weight Changes…NOT!! Reply with quote
Contrary to TAG USA’s April 21. 2005 Press Release they have decided to adopt new weights mid-season affecting boost ported engine packages.These changes are scheduled to go into effect July1, 2005.
CSC will NOT adopt these changes at this time.Weights will remain the same in all TAG classes as previously posted.
There will be NO weight corrections at this time.
If it is determined that there is a discrepancy at seasons end we will review it and make neccessary changes effective in 2006.One of the issues brought up season after season all across the country has been the resistance to mid season rule changes. I think the CSC feels pretty much the same.
im Keesling
This is why I agree the best decision is to do nothing regarding the TaG update. They didn’t show any documentation regarding the decision, and the results of putting the weight on any of the motor packages.
See you at The Track,
JimJim’s post had much more text which can be seen in the link to the original thread above. The entire thread actually has some interesting comments.
Tom,
From what I understand, the original homologation for the Motori had a 9cc head, Icc style pipe and no rpm control on the ignition. The engine we ran last year had 12cc head and limited pipe and ignition. Sounds like weight needed to be adjusted and they did so. But if they’re going to put it in a boost port weight category at high altitude, they should give back the 9cc head the original pipe and open rpm ignition as it was homologated. This puts the motor right back to why no one used it for the 1st few years it was in the US, it wouldn’t stay together. (that would suck too) It would just be nice to have this firmed up in time to plan for the upcoming season without having excessive weight added. Also, we put 72 hours on the Motori last year before rebuild, not even a re-ring. Hopefully the dependability stays reasonable.Your right, the Leopard seems to have most numbers (and it seems political clout) and is probably the overall most dominant engine. It’s just a multiple engine package situation to have the best at each track. Some of the people who discouraged the idea of multiple engines in Tag ended up doing it in the end. The best way to resolve this would be different weights at different tracks for different engines. That would require a lot of effort, too much. Your idea in the link above has merit, adding wgt to front runners etc… Don’t think that will happen either. Christ, if Roman has a few good races his brakes won’t stop him. Wait, that’s already a problem! We’re already 10 – 20 lbs over class minimum, that could get a little out of hand for someone like us.
I’m still not sure about Motori having a competitive edge. Rotax still has fastest lap at Junction in both Senior and Masters. (Sonik is close in Masters) Rotax still has the fastest time at Imi in both Senior and Masters. Bandi is kinda hard to establish fastest lap due to changing configurations, but as far as wins (05) Senior = leopard and Masters = Sonik. Bandi (06 rnd 4) Senior = Leopard and Masters = Motori. Bandi (06 rnd8) was Leopard & Leopard again. The Track seems to be the closest racing for the different type of engines, in Senior. In Masters the Sonik is strong and the Motori, Leopard and Rotax and Biland seemed pretty close. (we need to see what Jim runs on different engine packages to see how much is the amount of laps and how much is the Sonik) Greeley, Leopard = Senior and Motori = Masters dominated their classes. The Biland ran well at the short tracks and Gjms and had the potoential anywhere, I think Ron was on the podium 2 times and Bob was figuring out the tuning of the Biland. Also note, Keesling did not run Masters this year and could have changed the above numbers.
I suppose we’re back to the whole arm pit of Tag, there is more than 1 engine package allowed. We chose the Motori because it seemed like a good compromise for the different tracks. It does not have Leopard bottom end or rpm range or Rotax’s top end power but it does have very good mid range which made it a very strong road race package, that’s why the cylinder head volume stayed on the road race Motori. I’m not an expert but I think the 9.5 cc head will help bottom end and brings the cc’s closer to the other Tag engines.
There were some pretty good shoes on the Motori last year. How much of it is motor and how much driver / tuning? Kyle dominated Tag just like he did with the Leopard. We’ll have to get out and see what it has. Roman has several Rotax laps at Imi in the mid 54’s, haven’t come close to that with the Motori and we’ve thrown everything we had at it. Rotax (Charles) was the only Masters in the high 54’s this year that I know of.
One positve this year is having the Rotax Grands, if there are a lot of our top runners on the same engine package, you’ll see some damn good racing like it was when we started and most everyone was on the same thing, we were slow and learning then but there was a lot of parity. For the most part I think Tagusa does a good job for what is basically a near impossible task. It would be nice to see some of the decisions backed up with some hard data. Maybe some of the tracks that have adopted a Spec Leopard series are smarter than us. The Rotax series is good but what do you do the rest of the year? Tag? Read above.
And we kinda have one of everything too Tom! Just waiting for some of these things to shake out so we know what to do. Hopefully we’ll be competing with you again! :cheers:
Rick,
Your right about the post from Rusty, the weight changes that were enforced by TAGUSA starting July 1,2005 were not applied to the CSC for the GJMS on that 4th of JUly weekend race. The new weights were enforced the following CSC race weekend.
The engine we ran last year had 12cc head and limited pipe and ignition. Sounds like weight needed to be adjusted and they did so. But if they’re going to put it in a boost port weight category at high altitude, they should give back the 9cc head the original pipe and open rpm ignition as it was homologated
There were some pretty good shoes on the Motori last year
The Motori showed itself to be a very good motor at our altitude last year with the 12cc head and limited pipe and ignition. The way it ran in 2006 dictated the weight increase of 10lbs. Now to change it with the different head and leave the weight the same. The competitve advantage is decreasing the head volume at our altitude. Now a motor that was basically equal as could be is no longer.
One other thing, no one ever says anything about how differently the addition across the board for a motor of 30lbs from TAG Sr to Master effects different motors. It is impossible to think that the addition of 30lbs to the Biland or Sonik or Motori or …. has equal impact on engine performance.
I swore after the Supernationals in 2005 that I would not run a TAG kart over 400lbs ever again. I do not care how great the engine package. At 420-430lbs running with only rear breaks is dangerous and unacceptable to me personally.
Tom
I think that ALL senior (16yrs +) should have the option of running front brakes. Rear brake go-karts were developed in Europe where they run weights down around 350 not 365+. As a senior racer we should be allowed to run front brakes, and R-MAX is the only series smart enough to do that right now, and I run front brakes at every RMAX challenge race that we do.
For those who choose to, running front brakes is the right thing to do. Make it optional, however in my humble opinion, error on the side of safety.
Greg you are spot on!!!
– Eddy
AJ Nude Dude,
I am in need of four new engines for Kelly and I for the year. please pm or e-mail me and let me know about the Motori. I have been leaning toward the Leopard because we have had good success with them but please sell me on the Motori.
By the way, I sold all of my karts and think it included our 4 chassis to race so I may need some chassis as well so send me details.
Thank you,
Richie
Richie,
It is so cool you’re going to race. We had so much fun racing with you guy’s. I’ll bet you have a lot of fun just showing up with a couple of Tag’s and racing without the brain damage of running a large team. You and Kelly are more than welcome to drive Romans kart, Gp-8 / Motori. I’m pretty sure we’ll be in Junction for the enduro and need to come out the day before to blow off some of the Cobb’s. Take her for a spin.
Eddy,
When Tagusa first posted 2007 rules, they apparently miss printed Tag Masters as being able to run front brakes. We were stoked. 2 days later it was retracted. Not sure what the difference is between stopping a 400lb 4-stroke Tag (ft brakes legal) or stopping a 400 lb Tag Masters! (ft brakes not legal) If there not an advantage, they should let us run them optionally, I have been worried Roman would explode a rotor a few times this year, kind of takes the fun out of it.
Rick
The front brake issue really draws out the passion in racers. Some scream that it raises costs, some claim it makes racing more safe and some less safe.
The more costs argument guys claim it “forces” you to spend $1,000 to upgrade your kart to be competitive. That’s nonsense. Rotax allows front brakes and we were one of the few guys in Florida running them and we were the fastest team running them. On Saturday when we qualifed 8th, .2 off pole, everyone in front of was rear brake only. So clearly you don’t “need” them to run in the front.
Rear brake only karts are less safe in that if your brakes fail, you have NO brakes. At least with a front brake kart, you still have brakes at one end if the other end fails. I get calls almost every day from guys with rear brakes only looking for some form of upgrade. As Greg pointed out, rear brake kart in Europe run at much lighter weights than we do, often down around #330. At the weights we run, 365 to 415, you are asking too much from the brake. Last year in Florida, Mike Wilson was using a rear brake kart to its fullest and the rotor exploded after only a few laps. The result was some broken ribs.
The argument of less safe is that the front brake karts will out brake the rear only karts and that is dangerious. This argument I really don’t understand at all. I always thought the idea about this was that we a RACING and that in order to pass, you out brake the other guy.
Tom Dennin
PostPosted: Wed 01 17, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject:
The Motori showed itself to be a very good motor at our altitude last year with the 12cc head and limited pipe and ignition. The way it ran in 2006 dictated the weight increase of 10lbs. Now to change it with the different head and leave the weight the same. The competitve advantage is decreasing the head volume at our altitude. Now a motor that was basically equal as could be is no longer.The way it ran in 2006 did not dictate a 10 lb weight increase, adding the 9.5cc head is what brought the 10lb increase. You have them in the wrong order. Like I said earlier in this thread, Rotax still has fast time at Gjms and Imi. The motor did run well here but I don’t think it dominated. Looks like Brad is getting Tagusa to look at adding additional weight to the package for our altitude. They had to do something because the Motori did not run well most everywhere else. Nobody complained when Roman out qualified the field by a second At Imi last year. It was just a good lap, if we would have done that on the Motori?
So a dominant package last year based on the engine performance needing 10 lbs in Colorado. I don’t agree with that. Are certain engines better at different tracks? Sure. Pretty sure Kyle was going to do what he did on any engine that had potential.
Doug,
In my opinion, your are spot on with your comments above!Okay so Kyle Ray kicked arse on a Leapurd two years ago and no weight change. Last year he kicked butt and now you want to put a 10# penalty? And the logic is… :idn:
Gang, look at what the Motori7 was tested and homologated with. If you open your eyes you’ll see it was a free revving engine like a sonic AND IT HAD A 9cc HEAD. It also blew up a lot. The change was a revving engine limited to 15K. Now we go back to the head that it was homologated with and y’all want to add weight? :idn:
Roman kicked everyone’s arse (and so did Sam Walls) in Masters last year. It must be the engine. Same with Kyle Ray. Get your knee jerk, mamby pamby, girlie boyz attitude and utilize it somewhere else, please.
Fact: Motori7 pilots got their lunch handed to them at Greeley. FACT
Fact: At the TaG Nationals in New Castle the hot shoe drivers on Motori7’s changed to Leapurds to be competitive since the 7 wasn’t. FACT
Fact: The local hot shoes on 7’s at the Supernats SWITCHED engines because they weren’t competitive. FACT
Fact: Rick Samu pulled my arse out of the final corner at Bandi last year, each and every lap. FACT
Fact: Roman and Charles on Rotax engines @ IMI have set fastest laps @ IMI. FACTSo there’s my proof that Rotax and Leapurd should have weight added. Don’t confuse getting your arse kicked by a better (more practice, specific practice, better tuning, better chassis adjustment) driver cloud your judgement and knee jerk that it’s the engine. You’re insulting some pretty damned good shoes if you do. Read up, view charts and you can make your own conclusions.
Just don’t insult MY intelligence and say Motori needs a 10# weight penalty because these drivers are not a part of the equasion. If you do I’ll insult yours and say the weight penalties should be what I’ve stated above.
With the 9.5cc head the Motori needs another 20lbs!! 😆
I think Rick said Roman was 20lbs over so that would only put him at 410lbs. Load the kart up to 420lbs like the boost port motors make it as fast as you can, no rev limiter, add front brakes, and lets race.
Also, since we are talking about so called facts here and no real data other than drivers, tuners, and finishing postions, do you know for a fact that TAGUSA wouldn’t back track on the use of the 9.5cc head? Do you know for a fact that if they reversed course on the 9.5cc head back to the 12cc head that they would reduce the published 2007 weight by 10lbs? From the pattern established by TAGUSA or lack there of, none of this is fact.
Or just maybe here and this is a stretch, take a look at the performance of the Motori in So Cal. I think there are a few okay drivers and tuners racing the Motori.
At least AJ, the dealer for the engine, is honest about the Motori’s power at this altitude. He has talking with me anyway. I really do think with a 9.5cc head the engine will be overpowered up here at all of the tracks. I have to agree that the engine needed a change at lower altitudes from seeing it race first hand. I also had a recent conversation last week with Jerry Henderson who won TAG Masters with a Motori in the first PKC race a few weeks ago. He said “the cc change gave the Motori a slight advantage over the other engines”. To go from 12cc down to 9.5cc is a big change. Barry has offered to dyno the engine with the new head, he has recently dyno’ed one with the old head and has something to compare it to.
I think that’s fair.
Brad did Marty do dyno runs in the process of approving the 9.5cc head? I’m assuming he did to come up with a 10lb weight penalty over the 12cc head. I’m sure they did some type of testing to come up with the numbers they did. I would be willing to do some on track sessions, which is what I thought it was going to come down too anyway.
What I don’t think Tom D. understands is how bad the Motori got smoked at (don’t hold me to this) most every track but Moran last year. (in sprint) They ran very good at Moran last year with a 12cc head. But at the rest of the tracks have a tough time running with the Leopard and Rotax. I spoke with Manning (importer) pretty much throughout and he was testing all year and working / lobbying Marty for some help. It wasn’t till the Tag Worlds that he got to see it first hand. What some might not know is Howie and Jerry went back to the Rotax to stay competitive in their Championships.
I do not disagree with adding weight to us at altitude, how much I don’t know. Putting it at boost port weights doesn’t seem right. And making the thing a time bomb again is not smart / fair.
We don’t want it to be a dominant engine, just a fair engine.
Not sure about Roman and the weight thing last year. He was between 5 & 15 lbs heavy. The year before with the Rotax we were 10 -20 lbs heavy (He discovered girls!)
If we’re going to do the dyno thing at Barry’s, can run a few of the most popular engines on there as well? It might be interesting to see how altitude affects the other engines too.
Rick
What’s 2.5cc’s amongst friends? 8)
Fair is fair as long as they have some FAIR testing data I’ll go along with an increase. I’d like to get back to 210 like I should be. I just don’t want to go from 200 to 210 and then add 20 pounds like it is a boost port engine.
Like Joe Friday said, Just the facts, ma’am.
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