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I’m upset. Actually pissed off is a better word.
I just found out that the rules have changed in TaG class pertaining to the Motori7 head. The original head that we have is 12cc’s and the head that the engine was homologated with is 9.5cc’s. Now, 9 days before the season starts we (Motori owners) are being told the homologated head is illegal and we can’t use it. No 10 pounds additional weight, just persona non grata..
Can I see some data to support your findings please. NOW.
TaG USA rules, which are what we’re following, say the homologated head is perfectly fine.
So, let me get this straight, when the motori’s got their arses handed to them at the SuperNationals in Las Vegas and at that point the sanctioning bodies knew of the smaller displacement head they tested them; They found that they would be okay and that there would be an additional weight penalty of 10 pounds. Case closed.
But that doesn’t matter we have better data, right! Produce it!
In some smoky back room I think after a few scotches or beers a decision was made with NO backing data but a few harebrained observations. Well let me present your case for you since it was conveniently slipped into the rule book without as much as a peep.Evidence article 1 of the prosecution:
Sam Walls and Roman ran away with the championship in TaG Masters. So did Kyle Ray in TaG Senior. Flimsy argument! CSC race #1; Fastest Laps, Sam 56.5, Roman 56.7, Charles Gordon (rotax)56.6; CSC @ IMI 55.7 Roman, 55.7 Sam, 55.6 Charles; CSC @ Action Karting 42.7 Sam, 42.6 Roman, 43.1 Rick Samu. It looks pretty evenly matched to me wouldn’t you say?Evidence article 2 of the prosecution:
Gunter DeSanti ran a 55.4 at the Mile High Challenge race April1st. That’s right. And he was weighted for TaG senior weight so he was what, 40 pounds light? Ask Jack Warrington (who tried to race stock Honda last season for a race or two) what 40 pounds does to your times, regaurdless of how good a driver you are! Plus, Gunter was running MG’s yellows. Is this really the argument you want to base your decision on?The most pathetic thing about this knee jerk reaction? I asked at the IMI meeting specifically if this was going to be addressed. Brad said it was being looked into. All I asked was to rule as quickly as possible because it determines my racing weight and if I am going to purchase the homologated head.
Quickly: with speed; rapidly; very soon; an adverb
Quick: done, proceeding with promptness or rapidity, as an action process, etc. as in a quick showerSo, I base my karting weight 10 pounds heavier knowing that I no longer have to eat boneless skinless chicken, salads and enough tuna without mayo to the point that I believe I’m sprouting gills!
Plus, I wait until 12 days prior to the season starting to order the homologated head. And 9 days prior to the season is when I find out that it’s illegal. SEE THE WORD ABOVE, QUICK. AND ITS DEFINITION So, waiting till 12 days prior to the season starting is quick? And now I’m 10 pounds heavier than I should be. And you wonder why I’m upset?!
Fair: Free from bias, honesty or injustice. As in a fair judge. Legitimately sought persued, done. As in a fair fight.
So, The fact that I am fortunate and can return my 200.00 paperweight back to the supplier when it comes in tomorrow (and pay for my shipping and his and a restocking fee if they charge that too) is better than the others who already have their homologated head and have used it (hence no way to return it) are SOL. Nice…
In my eyes whoever is making this decision has done the following things:
You just insulted the top drivers. You discounted the time and money they spent to get to the top of the heap. Kyle Ray races karts in two classes and races Midgets. Ask Bill Ray what they spent in tires alone testing. Same can be said about Rick Schmidt and Roman. I know personally how many sets of MG’s they went through to get good. No, make that great. Sam Walls is or was a G1 Nationally ranked (number 4) driver. You just flushed away their talent by saying it was their engines. Scott Hersh just finished the IMI club race Sunday in his Biland powered kart with the “hot” pipe (Patriot pipe?) and was faster by 1.0 seconds a lap. He’s a crap driver is what you’re saying. It’s got to be his new pipe. So, by Sunday all “hot” piped bilands will have 25 or 30 pounds of weight added to their karts? To make it fair, wait till Thursday night and sneak it in the rules AND DON’T NOTIFY ANYONE OF SUCH A MONUMENTAL CHANGE. I for one think 25 pounds is enough. 30 would be too much.
And, when Roman shows up on a leapord GP8 and wins does that mean that the leapord gets another 15 pounds added to them? No, you’re right it should only be 10 pounds. Screw it, let’s just add it now to stop the confusion. We don’t have any data but let’s just have a knee jerk reaction to it now. We’ve had 5 months to figure these things out but let’s just do it with less than 2 weeks to make a change. When you all said to read the rule book you weren’t kidding! Hell, changes could happen any minute! Unannounced! I’ve been a mortgage banker for 20 years now and if we have major changes in our underwriting or guidelines we notify people immidiately you’re seeing that in the sub prime market. Why aren’t we? Do we just strive for mediocrity with a byproduct of pissing people off? The CSC karting rule book is a living organism. I’ve seen turtles move slower than our rulebook.
The homologated head wasn’t even given a chance under race conditions. Now, if you’ve already bought and used the homologated head you’ve got a pretty paperweight/conversation piece. I don’t think Roman, myself or others in TaG Masters would enjoy running off with a championship with a motor that was head and shoulders above the rest. We’re gladiators and at the end of the day when the battle is over we’re exhausted and ready for some refreshments.
I think I speak for us Motori owners by saying we purchased an engine that is good overall at all the tracks here. We know at Bandimere we’re behind the “8 ball” because of the severe hairpins. Same could be said at Greeley. IMI and Grand Junction we’re in the think of things. It’s reliable, has a beefier clutch than rotaxes and or leaperds. And it has the 30mm carb. But now you’re saying it’s winning by itself. Nice…So, here are my options:
I get to race with the old head and I’m now 20 pounds overweight for the class. Or not race. But adding 10 pounds to the new head isn’t an option. Again, I’d like to see the data that this decision was based on.Anyone in TaG Masters want number 27 to race with?
If you’re going to screw me, at least kiss me first.
I’ll trade you one lightly used Dominator HardKart paperweight for your lightly used Motori paperweight.
I too remember this coming up at the preseason meeting, I figured since we hadn’t heard anything that the subject of running a different head in our rocky mountain region had been dropped. I heard some statements/rumors that the motor was unfair as run (currently) and thus the need for the different head to bring it in line with the other tag motors. I watched the tag race closely yesterday, Dale wasnt running away from Zippy, they were quite evenly matched going down the straight.
I’m sure there is some empirical data floating around begging to be shared. Was this an altitude problem that made the motori ‘unfair’?
Up here at our altitude it is obvious that the 9.5ccv head would make the Motori that much better. Hard to argue with physics. I have said that from the beginning and Brad concurred prior to that meeting. I can’t figure out the problem other than Sam and Roman should be good to go again this year 🙂 and Mike what’s an extra 10 lbs of body weight anyways.
don’t even get started about adding or not adding weight to the Leopard. Never will happen even though it should be heavier or god forbid we could all be lighter!
Since we are doing an altered version of TAGUSA rules for our CSC series can we not make adjustments to the weights based on engine-track combinations. Everyone knows the Rotax is slow, for all drivers pro and alike, at Bandimere. It would be the perfect chance.
Tom
No Mike, you have got to be kidding, your not kidding me.
I just found out that the rules have changed in TaG class pertaining to the Motori7 head. The original head that we have is 12cc’s and the head that the engine was homologated with is 9.5cc’s. Now, 9 days before the season starts we (Motori owners) are being told the homologated head is illegal and we can’t use it. No 10 pounds additional weight, just persona non grata..
BS! :bs:
I clearly remember the FIRST CLUB RACE at TheTrack, walking up to you and asking which head you were running and you told me the 12cc head. I then told you that we had decided to leave the cc for the Motori the same at 12cc and the weight the same as last year for this season. You then told me that you had ordered the new head but had not received it yet. You never once objected to me telling you that the Motori would be running the same setup at last season. That is what I told you exactly.
Can I see some data to support your findings please. NOW.
TaG USA rules, which are what we’re following, say the homologated head is perfectly fine.
So, let me get this straight, when the motori’s got their arses handed to them at the SuperNationals in Las Vegas and at that point the sanctioning bodies knew of the smaller displacement head they tested them; They found that they would be okay and that there would be an additional weight penalty of 10 pounds. Case closed.
But that doesn’t matter we have better data, right! Produce it!
In some smoky back room I think after a few scotches or beers a decision was made with NO backing data but a few harebrained observations. Well let me present your case for you since it was conveniently slipped into the rule book without as much as a peep.The data from the results of last season in COLORADO at 5280 feet:
TAG Masters
1st place Motori/Roman Gutierrez who was 20-25 lbs overweight, did not have to run the last race was that far ahead in points.
3rd place Motor/ Gunter 3 lbs overweight
4th place Motori/Jack Nugent who was 25+ lbs overweight
5th place Motori/Sam Walls who was 10-15lbs overweight
11 place Motori/Mike Jansen who was 20+ lbs overweight with no brakes
TAG Senior
1st place Motori/ Kyle Ray on weight
5th place Motori/Sam Walls way over weight
6th place Motori/Gunter DeSanti on weight
I attended the race in Las Vegas and the TAG World finals race at New Castle. I have had many discussions with Marty Casey about the Motori concerning the head volume and the weight. It was my opinion that the Motori needed the 9.5cc head to be competitive at lower elevations. I expressed my opinion to Marty Casey at each race while we were watching the TAG races. He agreed the Motori needed a change to be competitive at Las Vegas and the World Finals and in California. He also knew that the Motori was running very competitive in Colorado at our elevation. Marty knows me well enough to know that I am all about parity in the TAG class. I do not think there was anyone except for Mike Manning, the Motori importer, which was pushing for a change in the Motori head volume more than me. I do not think the Leopard engine should be dominating every TAG race event we attended for the last 4 years. I also do not think any TAG engine should be dominating every race. TAGUSA attempts to make parity between engines but we all know that certain tracks favor some engines over others. Altitude also affects some engines more than others in different ways. It is impossible to make the weights and rules equal for every situation. Marty Casey knows this only too well and allows regions to make adjustments to suit their situation. Nationally he cannot do that and everyone must run by the same rules.
Evidence article 1 of the prosecution:
Sam Walls and Roman ran away with the championship in TaG Masters. So did Kyle Ray in TaG Senior. Flimsy argument! CSC race #1; Fastest Laps, Sam 56.5, Roman 56.7, Charles Gordon (rotax)56.6; CSC @ IMI 55.7 Roman, 55.7 Sam, 55.6 Charles; CSC @ Action Karting 42.7 Sam, 42.6 Roman, 43.1 Rick Samu. It looks pretty evenly matched to me wouldn’t you say?Yes, it looks pretty evenly matched to me from last season so why should we give the Motori more power in Colorado? Does Roman or Kyle need more power to win first place over last season? None of the other TAG engines had anything changed for them. We are not penalizing the Motori. We are not adding weight or changing the head volume higher than what we ran last season. We decided that there was close parity with the rules the way they were last season and saw no need to give the Motori a break when the engine was very competitive, won both classes last year, had the most drivers with the same engine in the top ten with the 12cc head even with drivers that were way overweight.
Evidence article 2 of the prosecution:
Gunter DeSanti ran a 55.4 at the Mile High Challenge race April1st. That’s right. And he was weighted for TaG senior weight so he was what, 40 pounds light? Ask Jack Warrington (who tried to race stock Honda last season for a race or two) what 40 pounds does to your times, regardless of how good a driver you are! Plus, Gunter was running MG’s yellows. Is this really the argument you want to base your decision on?We decided two months ago before the season began and our decision was not based on what Gunter ran at TheTrack. It is not the argument we based the decision on.
I talked with Gunter and he said he weighed 365, (5lbs over TAG Senior weight) which is only 25lbs less than the weight for the Motori at 390 (same as last year, Angie is going to make that correction). Gunter is the only one who owns a Motori that has been honest with me about the power of the Motori. Gunter owns two Motori?s and agrees with us that the engine should be run the same as last year. He feels the Motori is very competitive with the other engines and thinks that more power will make the engine dominate the TAG class. Gunter also said the MOJO tires at TheTrack did not change his times more than a tenth or two.
The most pathetic thing about this knee jerk reaction? I asked at the IMI meeting specifically if this was going to be addressed. Brad said it was being looked into. All I asked was to rule as quickly as possible because it determines my racing weight and if I am going to purchase the homologated head.
Quickly: with speed; rapidly; very soon; an adverb
Quick: done, proceeding with promptness or rapidity, as an action process, etc. as in a quick shower.It was not a knee jerk reaction. I told AJ even before TAGUSA changed the rules last year that we would more than likely not change the weight and the cc for the Motori in Colorado even if there was a change made by TAGUSA. When the TAGUSA rules were changed I reminded AJ of what I told him last year and suggested he not change any heads before the season started. Even AJ agreed with me that the Motori needed a change at lower altitude but not here.
You just insulted the top drivers. You discounted the time and money they spent to get to the top of the heap. Kyle Ray races karts in two classes and races Midgets. Ask Bill Ray what they spent in tires alone testing. Same can be said about Rick Schmidt and Roman. I know personally how many sets of MG’s they went through to get good. No, make that great. Sam Walls is or was a G1 Nationally ranked (number 4) driver. You just flushed away their talent by saying it was their engines. Scott Hersh just finished the IMI club race Sunday in his Biland powered kart with the “hot” pipe (Patriot pipe?) and was faster by 1.0 seconds a lap. He’s a crap driver is what you’re saying. It’s got to be his new pipe. So, by Sunday all “hot” piped bilands will have 25 or 30 pounds of weight added to their karts? To make it fair, wait till Thursday night and sneak it in the rules AND DON’T NOTIFY ANYONE OF SUCH A MONUMENTAL CHANGE. I for one think 25 pounds is enough. 30 would be too much.
I am really trying to figure out what you mean by this gibberish. I never said the only reason they were competitive was because of their engine last year but I sure would if they got to use the 9.5cc head this year. There was parity in the TAG classes last year in Colorado with the rules the way they were and there is no reason to upset that balance.
Scott is a very good driver and he even finishes the race. You can?t win if you don?t complete your laps. If I were you I would be more worried about having good brakes than the fastest engine. Also, don?t most people buy an engine they think will give them the greatest advantage for their own situation? Why did you buy a Motori? Because it was the cheapest, NO, because it was slow, NO, because it was the best looking engine, NO. You bought a Motori because you thought it was the best engine for you to win with.
I have not heard one good reason from anyone of the Motori owners as to why we should give them more power in Colorado. Their only legitimate complaint may be that they did not know about the decision. I know for a fact that you knew because I told you myself and I know that AJ knew that we were probably going to keep things the same because I told him. It may have taken longer than we wanted for Angie to publish the rules but Angie has a job now and it takes a lot of time to do the job she did.
Maybe I am missing something as to why you think you need more power when the Motori engine was competitive the way it was run last season. Could it be that you were using that 9.5cc head last season?
Can anyone out there explain to me why an engine that won both TAG classes, one with a driver overweight and many drivers running up front overweight NEED MORE POWER?
😥 in your beer
You know what’s amazing:
TaG USA is trying to help the motori by lessening the weight, adding the 9.5 head and allowing a spacer of 1 inch from the cylinder to the exhaust manifold.
Here in Colorado we’re adding weight and increasing the head volume!So, is the CSC reimbursing the suckers/saps/idiots err racers who already paid and installed their heads? They need an answer!
Let me get this straight, the first 3 races in the mile high series ran without rules and allowed this?
The thing that urinates me the most is the fact that unless I want to consult Nicole Ritchie on rapid weight loss I’m overweight by quite a bit now. AND THAT WAS avoidable.
All it took was people to man up, make that decision quickly in the preseason and go from there. But obviously there are boys making those calls.
So is this going to be addressed? Or am I going to be ignored? 303 931-7660 if you want to address this privately. Grow some balls or wear a skirt next time our paths cross…
Mikie,
Sell the Motori and come back to Rotax!!!!!!
If you would of stayed in Rotax you wouldn’t have this issue, now would you?
I’am not saying Rotax is perfect but it does take the crap like this out of the equation.
:argue
The head volume was 12cc last year 12cc this year. Weight was 390 last year 390 this year. I told you at the first race of the year the rules were the same when you told me you had the 12cc head. Did you think I was joking? The decision was made two months ago. Why don’t you man up Jansen!!
The last post was completed before your response…
To answer your comments individually:
I just found out that the rules have changed in TaG class pertaining to the Motori7 head. The original head that we have is 12cc’s and the head that the engine was homologated with is 9.5cc’s. Now, 9 days before the season starts we (Motori owners) are being told the homologated head is illegal and we can’t use it. No 10 pounds additional weight, just persona non grata..
BS!
I clearly remember the FIRST CLUB RACE at TheTrack, walking up to you and asking which head you were running and you told me the 12cc head. I then told you that we had decided to leave the cc for the Motori the same at 12cc and the weight the same as last year for this season. You then told me that you had ordered the new head but had not received it yet. You never once objected to me telling you that the Motori would be running the same setup at last season. That is what I told you exactly
Brad, you can call me a bastard, S.O.B. , a.s.s.hole or even c.o.c.k :censored but don’t ever call me a liar, ever.
I did not tell you that I had ordered a head at the first club race. If I had why did I call Mike Manning last wednesday afternoon to place said order? The check was written the following day (4/26; check number 2081) I’m not calling you a liar but you’re misinformed. What I DID tell you is that I was going to get one and use it so that I could take the weight penalty. You MIGHT have thought you told me but why in the hell would I place an order 12 days before CSC #1?Yes, it looks pretty evenly matched to me from last season so why should we give the Motori more power in Colorado? Does Roman or Kyle need more power to win first place over last season? None of the other TAG engines had anything changed for them. We are not penalizing the Motori. We are not adding weight or changing the head volume higher than what we ran last season. We decided that there was close parity with the rules the way they were last season and saw no need to give the Motori a break when the engine was very competitive, won both classes last year, had most the most drivers with the same engine in the top ten with the 12cc head even with drivers that were way overweight.
Look, what I’m upset about is that I COMMUNICATED to you at the meeting at IMI about going that way to get to my normal weight. You think I enjoy curtailing my intake of beer, pizza, other foods? NO! I am at the gym at 5:45am working out knowing I could use the 9.5 head with a weight penalty.
Do you honestly believe I bought the MOTORI because it gave me a competitive advantage? My reasons for buying the motori are still the same as they were last July the day before the race at Centennial: reliability, competitive price point, and a clutch that works due to being beefier than the rotax model that I kept breaking (flywheel pins, shoes and clutch support plates)
I got tired of cheerleading from the infield. And I still am and that’s why i’ve been racing the club races to iron out the kinks NOW instead of at the State races.
Had I deeper pockets I’d have run a Sonic: I could weigh more and be competitive at all tracks motorwise. It just has a tendency to blow up because people didn’t know how to tune them and the clutch was an issue. Jim Keesling has now proved that it’s a reliable engine. Albeit does have less time between rebuilds.
Get it straight Brad, I commend you for leveling the playing field and also trying to identify or eradicate cheaters. I want to know that I got beat by a driver who is more talented, had more seat time or a better tuned chassis. The same way people who I beat recognize the same in me. It wasn’t due to the “magic engine” “magic fuel” etc.
Angie has a job, great. What I’m saying is word of mouth and innuendos doesn’t cut it for me. I could care less about the gossip and politics, I’m too blunt to play that game. You or someone with the authority could have taken a minute and posted here on this website “NO 9.5 Motori heads, period.” That’s called official communication. Many would have grumbled but like I’ve said before “the dictator speaks, deal with it” And myself and others would have adjusted.
I think CSC, you, Angie, Jim, Stacey, JB et. al. could have taken a minute to post that simple 5 word memo. And in that someone failed. Just like the line in COOL HAND LUKE, “what we have here is a failure to communicate.”
@blink wrote:
The head volume was 12cc last year 12cc this year. Weight was 390 last year 390 this year. I told you at the first race of the year the rules were the same when you told me you had the 12cc head. Did you think I was joking? The decision was made two months ago. Why don’t you man up Jansen!!
Man up? I’m sitting here addressing the issue head on with you instead of going behind CSC’s back bitching with a hidden agenda or secret meetings. That takes pretty big balls. So yes, I’ve manned up.
Did I think you were joking? No, but your laid back attitude was interpreted by me as we’ll probably follow TaG USA’s rules. Had you been more adamant about it I would have known the answer. Honestly I don’t know you that well other than you have a hot button towards cheating and fairness. And I commend you on that.
It’s possible that it would have taken approximately 60 seconds to put in writing (on this website) what was said verbally to make it official. Talk to any attorney and they’ll tell you, a verbal agreement is as good as the paper it was written on. If you tell us to jump in a lake is that official? If I tell you I’ve read the disclaimer in your shop about racing on your premisis, wouldn’t that be binding and clear you of fault? That’s a verbal agreement, isn’t it!
I did my due diligence by WAITING till last Wednesday to make the Motori head change. I would have changed my workout and diet earlier. Did you do your due diligence? Take responsibilty and accountability. I have.
mike 9.5 or12.o whats the difference you have to finish the race to win ,place or show !! wieght thats a laugher we have never made wieght not in the rotax or the biland and when the patriot exhaust was allowed the weight was almost instantly raised and no one cried about it!! so dont be such a wiener and let your driving do the talking! brad runs pretty fair races,scott hersh is a excellent driver.i would be willing to lay money down under any configuration the motori out dynos the biland and we had a few podium finishes our self in our biland/margay and would have third last season in points but a motori decided to wreck us and commodore K decided he would decide a lot the classes supposedly do to weather ! thats racing so overweight and underpower compared to the motori we will still be competive as long we all race by the . i hear nothing about the sonic engines one which won the championship and was a proven cheater motor or commodore Ks sonic which a lot of questions were asked both got free passes in tech jed clampet
Jed,
First off, I am not slighting Scott in any way. He is one hell of a driver and a great egg.
What’s gotten me is we run by rules. Rules are a living organism so to speak. People have incurred a cost that is now a paperweight. I’m only going to be out the cost of shipping per sey. What infuriates me is 60 flippin seconds of typing could have eliminated this issue way back when. That’s called due diligence.
What’s the next issue that’ll come up and bite karters in the butt?
Listen, if people ACTIVELY made a choice in spite of the rules then shame on them. I’m being put in that category and it pisses me off. If someone called you a child molester that would upset you, wouldn’t it? If it wasn’t true would you sit there and take it? I wouldn’t. Maybe I’m too old school and showing my Las Vegas roots. Back in the day you made an asinine accusation you either had a duel in the street or you had a meeting in the unmarked room in the bowels of the casino you were cheating. It’s called honor and respect. I think I’ve earned it throughout my 4 years of racing and my actions.
So, once again accountability goes the wayside. And people suffer.
Wow it’s heating up back home eh??? Didn’t think that there would be warfare over a combustion chamber….
Hope it works out guys, I will be home next tuesday, good luck to everyone at Bandimere this weekend!!!
Make sure you say happy birthday to my mom this weekend if they show up to watch, el cinco de mayo!Mike,
I am sorry about the lack of communication. The Motori deal is the most major change, or in this case, no change, in the rules. The actual rules took a little longer to get formatted and online, and I am sorry about that, too. They have been up on the CSC site for a couple of weeks. I will correct the weight listed, too.everybody take a deep breath!
Angie
@Marc Elliott wrote:
Wow it’s heating up back home eh??? Didn’t think that there would be warfare over a combustion chamber….
And you thought it only got hot in Arizona eh? 8)
It’s all good Marc, its called healthy debate. Your Dad’s an attorney, didn’t you sit around the table and debate continually? We did that weekly at my house. And the next night you had to swap sides on the issue!Sure, a shot or two across the bow was a bit much but issue’s been identified, debated and heard. And I still like Brad (but just don’t tell him)
Now it’s time to go racin’! :hit :driver
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