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Okay, I’ll take the bait on this one. As someone who’s trying to get into shifters cheap, I want to know why everyone is saying that ICC engines cost way more than a moto to run. The used price of a nice moto engine is as much or more than some of the used ICC’s I’ve seen (as a package with pipe, electronics, etc). And the motos seem to be much more modified than ICC’s, which would suggest that they break more often. But apparently this isn’t the case. That wasn’t the original sales pitch for ICC!
So let’s get specific: what breaks? Where’s the expense? How much more does it cost per season to run an ICC?
Thanks for bringing this up, Mike.
you could buy a new one stock for about 3400-3800, buy some jets for about 100, and some spare parts for a few hundred. So put that at about 4500, and it should last a season on a bottom end as long as you are nice to it, dont over rev it too hard, and dont run lean. We got 11 outings out of a piston, no blow by whatsoever, we kept it very rich of course, but it wasent raceday so no point. We could have ringged it and lasted a couple more runs. You could probably put a used chassis at like 2500 on a new icc for about 6k. If you want a good long lasting icc, run the fiberglass reeds, keep it rich untill race day, and clean your airbox frequently, or just run a filter on top of the airbox. You should be fine, you will just need to do regular maintanance, piston every 50 liters, bootomend at 230 (TM K9) and a set of fiberglass reeds every season (Carbon reeds every race, 85 for a set). We have had good luck with ours, it just had a water leak and a small hole in the boost port, casting flaw. Barry lewis hasent blown any up or anthing weird, its just when you make it a firebreather with all the pimped out stuff that they cost more then a moto.
for a 7 race CSC, on say a stock TM k9, you could do a piston every 2 races, so like 3 pistons at 85 a piece (whole season) and maybe 2 or 3 rings at 23 a piece. Run the stock fiberglass reeds and you wont have to worry about replacing them the entire season. Get the engine jetted right, they come super rich from the factory, and that will make a huge impact. Alex at DNA down on 285 has a dyno, so that can help ya work with the engine and performance from carb. Probably about a 100 for tubes, mains, piotls, immuslsions, needles, and some spares. Change the oil twice a season or every 5 or so times out if you please, so like 10 bucks there, dexron 3 ATF. Hone your cylinder at the end of the year or when needed.. other then that you should be good, a bottom end over the winter and get all new seals and bearings, so like 500 there, but on a stocker, onl doin CSC and some practice you should be ok for once a year. I have talked to a bunch of guys who just jetted it or threw on a silencer (aftermarket) and ran the whole season fairly cheap. I did the math, for a new engine at 3500, plus expenses is about 4500, add premix another 2 or 300 so lie 4800 (includes the end of the year work)
Why run a shifter when you can run a Tag kart? Tags are only a few miles an hour slower and a few tenths slower on the track. Cost is dramatically reduced from both the buy in stand point and the maintenance required. You are spending less time messing with your motor and more time focusing on setup and driving skills which makes for a more enjoyable day. If you don’t have a good mechanic then you might as well just throw the shifter on the track for practice only because you won’t be up front.
Tag is the way to go. Buy a Sonik, Rotax, Leopard, Easykart or Biland. Several motor packages to choose from and they start in the low $2,000’s for brand new.
if by tenths you mean 4 seconds and 12mph, lest of course your using that funky fuel, then a rotax can perform pretty well…….
tag rocks, but shifters are the bad boy, i know, i race bothTaG is the way to go. Easy and cheap.
So here is the real question. Does driving an ICC or a moto for that matter make you a better or worse TAG driver? Why?
I look at the ICC and think what a fun ride.
Tom
Ok lets See ! 😯 Most open wheel Indy/Formula Cars have gear a gear box :idn: And so One must not only Point and shoot but also utilize their senses in knowing the motors/engines power band as to when the shift point @ the right RPM must be accomplished. Now do that how many times during a 20 lap main and see how great you feel knowing that you are close to a track record and reached speeds that are only possible in a shifter , Hello! I agree Tag is cheap and easy and if thats what works then thats Great, and if your choice fits your expectations then – its all good! But if your goal is to experiance the Power (40-47 hp) of a shifter, then enjoy ! :cheers:
Yes racersdad, but drive a decent formula or F1 car these days and you will find a stop and a go pedal – same as any direct drive kart…..Shifters keep you a bit busier on the track but direct drive will teach you about as much as you need to know (at far less cost)….as always different people have different preferences….. !! !
I don’t have any costs of my own, even though I bought an ICC last fall. Just not racing yet. I can attest to what Marc said above regarding extra jets – just spent approx $100 for 7 main jets, 3 pilot jets, 3 needles and 6 clips.
The following quote from Tom Barth (Dellorto guru), Green Flag Motorsports @ http://www.greenflag.net found in his Dellorto tuning series at Ekartingnews at http://www.ekartingnews.com/news_info.php?n=2770
“Much has been written about the ?high cost? of the ICC. I don?t subscribe to this. From what I see, most damaged ICC?s are the result of improper carburetor settings, i.e. too lean! Burned crank big ends and scored cylinder walls are significant warnings that in the quest for power, the trade off is expensive rebuilds. That mentality pretty much destroyed the high performance moto market. Let?s not do it to the ICC too. With proper carburetor adjustment the ICC will perform at maximum until the required rebuild time.”
A California spin on things, the following from JM Racing newbie page http://www.jmracing.com/pages/newbie.html
ICC: Water-cooled 125cc motors, usually from Italy, especially built for kart racing. The carburetor size, ignition, electronics, pipes and internal gearbox ratios are homologated to certain spec and prohibit modifications, which keeps costs down. The engine is quite reliable, has around 40 horsepower and is fast right out of the box. In The Golden State My-Chron 3 Cup, we have a spec-ICC class, which prohibits porting. Therefore, keeping costs down. The Star?s of Tomorrow or SKUSA ICC class allow engine modification to the limit of the CIK. The weight for this class is 375lbs. The easy way to tell the difference between an ICC and a Moto motor is that the ICC the carb is at the front of the motor and that the water-pump is a separate entity, and runs by belts attached to the rear axel. The ICC class is the most popular shifter kart class in Europe and is quickly gaining speed in the states as well. JM Racing runs a factory ICC team in the extremely competitive Cart?s Stars of Tomorrow Series.
Motocross: Was the most popular class in shifter kart racing in America. The motors are motocross based, usually Honda, but also Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Moto TM, Gilera and KTM. The motors are water-cooled 125cc with 5 or 6 speeds. There are two distinctive classes to the motocross shifter kart class, the open class and the spec class. The open class allows virtually anything as long as the motor is 125cc, is motocross based and has the water pump run internally. The spec class allows for blue printing but no porting, limits the size of the carburetor, uses stock ignition and has a spec-racing pipe. The horsepower of a stock Honda 125cc is around 32, 33, the horsepower of a spec Honda 125 is around 38, and the HP of a built Honda with all the bells and whistles is more then 46. This includes; an RS motorcycle GP roadracing piston, heavy modification to the casings, head and cylinder, a programmable ignition, 38 or 39mm carb, dual fuel pumps, racing pipe, etc. Now for that extra 13 plus horsepower, be prepared to spend well over $5,000 in modifications and parts. Also, be prepared to change pistons every few hours. The reliability factor in a built motocross motor is much less then an ICC, but the stock or virtually stock motocross motor is better. Again, it depends on what you want to do and how much you are prepared to spend. I.E. ?Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go??
If you want to race competitively in a growing class with rules that make sense without spending a fortune on mods and getting beat by a guy who spends the most money, we recommend the Spec-ICC class. For $3,295 you get a race ready TM package with pipe and carb. If you want to race at the national level, we recommend the Star?s ICC series. Because of the strict CIK regulations; such as, spec ignition and 30mm carb, the ICC class limits the advantages a ?tuner? modified ICC motor has versus a factory tuned motor; therefore it brings the driver back into the equation, not the engine builder.
If you want to play around on the weekend and like the idea of shifting gears and driving a little Indycar, get a stock moto package. Add carbon fiber reeds, a racing pipe, get some light porting and blue print to the motor and you?ll have a reliable 36 to 38 hp beast! With this package you might win club races, but you won?t win any national moto race. Or, you can race the many Spec Moto classes around. Be sure to contact your racing organizations for a set of rules. The Golden State My-Chron 3 Cup has a Spec-Honda class. Each motor must be built by Alex Sanner racing, uses a spec carb, pipe and the stock ignition.
I think it would be more accurate to compare the costs of running a modified moto vs a modified ICC. The original hype when ICCs first came out was that the racer could buy a “competitive” package right out of the box. If that’s so, then why are $7,000 Swedetech and other “tuner” ICCs showing up to run in our little podunk series????? I read in a recent ekartingnews post that a stock ICC has not finished in the top 10 at any national event (SKUSA) thus far in 2004. Although we do not run an ICC, I’ve been observing a bunch of them this year going zoom-kaboom.
Yes, highly modified motos are expensive to run, but now that ICCs are being stressed as well they are beginning to break with great regularity. I don’t know what ICC parts cost, but I’ve heard that cylinders are about $600 and crankshafts are up around $800. By contrast a Honda cylinder is less than $300 and a crank is around $200 (with a rod) and RS pistons with ring and bearing are about $120.
I’ve also heard that in Europe, they’re going to be going to 4-strokes in 2006 (I think), so what happens to all of the development $$$$$ that US racers have spent on ICCs? The answer is….the same thing that’s happening to the motos now only perhaps quicker primarily because of an extremely small supplier base.
Like I said, I don’t have experience running both — so perhaps I’m wrong — Maybe Doug Welch could weigh in on this — He’s got a lot of time with both engines.
And yes, shifterkarts are more “thrilling” to drive than TAGs, but they damn well better be since you probably spent about $7500 extra for that 12mph and 4 seconds at the track. No, these ain’t “cheap thrills.”
Shifters have become, in my opinion, absurdly expensive to race competitively and that’s the thing that is so compelling about TAG (and again, we do not run TAG) is that in that class, you are racing the other guy (or gal) and not their checkbook! 🙄
Please note that when the F1 guys get together to race it is in the direct drive or TAG classes. I think the reason for this is because you learn to drive smooooth, the engine (or gears) can’t bail you out. IMHO I think I am a better pilot since I have learned that being smooth in the entry and exit of the corners is what makes a faster pilot.
Just my .02 😀
Interesting fact about the stock ICC’s, thank you. I just was wondering isn’t it getting old to see so many ICC’s going blammo the route of the HONDA’s and Mercedes in F1…
Actually the reason F1 drivers drive direct drives, is becuase Formula A is the worlds most premeir class of karting. It really isnt all about keeping them smooth, becuase FA doesnt exist in the USA, and champcar drivers drive shifters, tagliani raced his arrow/SRA TM at xplex a few months back. Most all of the new wave of american race car drivers came through the shifter ranks, look at results from 98-2002. FA is twice as popular as ICC, and its a larger, and about as fast class, only a second or so slower. If shifters were “the in thing” over there, they would race those, but FA is the bully on the block
Guys,
The secret to going fast in any class is being smooth. No matter how fast or slow the vehicle you are racing the smoother the drive the faster the time.
All cars and karts are momentum vehicles. The faster you are coming out of a corner the faster you will be at the end of the straight entering the next corner. Horsepower may be able to cover for you if you make a mistake but not if the guy you’re chasing makes none.
The old saying slow in fast out is undoubtly the fast way around most any race track. It’s just with faster better handling equipment the slow in is relativly fast compared to a car or kart that doesn’t handle as well.
Even large point and shoot cars such as GT-1(trans am type cars) benifit from a driver that understands it’s not how fast you go in, it’s how fast you come out.
Of course it goes with out saying the faster and better handeling you race car/kart is the harder it is to balance the equation.
Little Bill
you are racing the other guy (or gal) and not their checkbook!
MR MACGREGOR IF YOU THINK THAT YOU ARE BEING BEATEN IN THE PRO 125 CLASS BY $$ THAN MAYBE YOU SHOULD CONSIDER RUNNING A DIFFERENT CLASS! :idn: MAYBE NOVICE 125? OR S2?
“MR MACGREGOR IF YOU THINK THAT YOU ARE BEING BEATEN IN THE PRO 125 CLASS BY $$ THAN MAYBE YOU SHOULD CONSIDER RUNNING A DIFFERENT CLASS! MAYBE NOVICE 125? OR S2?”
JEDI Racer:
If you read my post carefully, I merely pointed out the obvious: That the TAG class limits “checkbook racing.” I don’t think anyone would deny that shifter kart racing has become very expensive. And that’s too bad, because I know racers who are dropping out because of that fact and not just in the Pro class.
We choose to race the Pro class for a reason…..We are not Novices, and it would be unfair to the Novice drivers (about 2 seconds a lap unfair). S2 might be a consideration but what’s the point in competing in a 3 kart race? 5th last weekend wasn’t too bad – all things considered.
I see that this is your first post on this discussion forum. Would you mind identifying yourself? If someone is offering advice, It would be nice to know who that person is. My posts are always under my own name – not an alias. Also would you mind turning off your caps lock — all caps is considered to be shouting.
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