Tentative Kid Kart Rules

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  • #40795
    Angie MacEwen
    Participant

    Tentative Kid Kart Rules

    Comer C50/C51 Regulations

    20.0 Driver Eligibility- Ages 5-7.
    21.0 Engine eligibility- Comer C50/C51. C50 style engines with a steel cylinder sleeve are prohibited. No parts from a C50 engine may be used in a C51 engine. No parts from a C51 engine may be used in a C50 engine.
    22.0 Class Weight Minimum- The overall weight of kart chassis, driver, driving gear and any parts attached to kart at the time the kart enters the race. Will be as follows:
    1.) C50- 165 lbs.
    2.) C51- 150 lbs.
    22.1 Any parts that fall off the chassis/engine/driver that does not result in a black flag, cannot be included in post race scaling. Parts that fall off that result in a black flag can be included at post race scaling at race directors discretion.
    23.0 Engine Specifications
    23.1 Cylinder/ Cylinder head- Cylinder and head must remain OEM with no modifications to cylinder ports, head shape or any other portion of the cylinder and head assembly. Minimum head volume is 7.5cc. The cc measurement is taken with out a cc plug. During 2005 the use of a cc plug will be investigated and appropriate adjustments made, if necessary, to the cc volume to maintain stock unmodified parts with use of a cc plug measuring gauge.
    23.2 Piston/piston rings Assembly- All parts must be OEM Comer parts. No lightening of components besides trimming of skirt allowed. The piston skirt can be trimmed. The skirt can be no shorter than 1.210? as measured from the bottom of the bottom ring to the bottom of the skirt. No removing of material in any other area. See diagram.
    Rings must be OEM comer parts. The maximum allowed ring gap is .040?. Neither ring can fall through the cylinder.
    23.3 Crankshaft- Crankshaft must remain stock with all Comer OEM parts. No lightening of any reciprocating crankshaft parts is allowed. Rod length must remain OEM. No modification to keyway location or size. The keyway must be OEM with no modifications.
    23.4 Crankcase- No ?stuffing? of cases of any type allowed, no addition or subtraction of material. This includes generous application of case sealant. Excessive application of case sealant will be determined by the best judgment of the Technical director. No porting or matching on cases of any type is allowed. Crankshaft bearing pockets can not be sleeved.
    23.5 Carb/intake- Carb model SHA 14-12L Dellorto. All parts as cast with no grinding or polishing allowed. Maximum carb venturi is .475?. Maximum intake manifold allowed is .550? + or – .006?. Minimum inlet size for carb restrictor when used is 7mm.See diagram.
    23.5.1 Carb main jets- Main jets must be with in a #54-#58 jet. No drilling of jets allowed. No modification to the emulsion tube of any type.
    23.6 Air Filter- Air filter housing must be OEM as supplied from Comer. Air filter element is open but, element must be in place and complete (no holes, misfit or cutting of element).
    23.7 Ignition system- Plug wire must be OEM. Spark plug boot is non tech. All other electrical components must be OEM.
    23.7.1 Ignition timing- No altering of ignition timing in any manner is allowed. This includes modifications to the flywheel or key, or modification to any electrical component for the purpose of ignition timing control.
    23.7.2 Spark plug- Spark plug make and model is open but must retain OEM reach (3/8?). This part can be checked at any time and may be marked after qualifying and could require inspection before replacement is allowed.
    23.8 Bearings and seals- Bearing and seals are a non tech item. They must be of OEM size and dimensions. Seals must be installed in the same manner as OEM.
    23.9 Exhaust Muffler- Muffler must be OEM with no modifications. Matching the OEM exhaust openings is allowed to specified dimensions. No other modifications are allowed. Opening width is maximum .475?. Opening height is maximum .110?. See diagram.
    23.10 Clutch- Clutch must be OEM as supplied by Comer. No modifications of any kind are allowed. No machining of shoes or center hub allowed. Springs must be OEM parts as supplied by Comer. Clutch shoes must have Comer emblem stamped on the shoe. The minimum width of shoes and assembly .650?. Shoe length minimum chord measurement is 2.500?. Spring maximum diameter is .430? with 9 coils. Wire diameter is to be .075-.080?. No heat treating of any kind can be done to stock springs. See diagram.
    23.11 Sprockets/Chain/ Chain guard- The clutch gear must be a 10 tooth driver. Rear axle gear is open. 219 chain is the only size chain allowed. Chain guard is to completely cover chain when viewed from above.
    23.12 Gaskets- All gaskets must be intact and in place. No tearing or cutting of gaskets allowed. Additional gaskets on any part of engine is not allowed i.e. one intake manifold gasket as supplied from Comer, therefore only one gasket can be used. Aftermarket equivalent gaskets are allowed. All aftermarket gaskets must be same size and dimension as the stock gasket it replaces.
    23.13 Shroud- Taping of shroud not allowed.
    24.0 Chassis regulations
    24.1 No offset karts allowed, seat may not be offset beyond the outside edge of the left frame rail.
    24.2 Wheel base- Minimum 29?, maximum 31.5?
    24.3 Width- Maximum front width is 40? measured to outside of tire/rim. Rear minimum width is 39? and maximum 42? as measured from outside of tire/rim.
    24.4 Bumpers
    24.4.1 Rear bumper- Continuous loop shape with vertical or angled bracing, angled away from driver, connecting upper and lower loop rails is required. Must be at least as wide as the tires, maximum width is 42?. Upper rail of loop must be higher than the top of the rear axle.
    24.4.2 Front Bumper- Minimum height of upper rail is 7.75?. Two uprights required to connect upper rail to lower rail. Material required is steel,16mm or .630? minimum diameter.
    24.5 Steering wheel- Maximum height to highest point of steering wheel is 20?.
    24.6 Seat- Minimum height to top center of seat back is 12?.
    24.7 Bodywork
    24.7.1 Side pods- Side pods are to be of CIK style and material or double nerf rails are required. If nerf rail becomes detached while on the track, driver will be black flagged.
    24.7.2 Nose Cone- Nose cone is to be of CIK style and material. The nose may be no wider than the outside of the front tire. If a nose cone becomes detached while on track, the driver will be black flagged.
    24.7.3 Driver Fairing- Driver fairing must be of CIK style and material is optional. Maximum width of panel is 9?. No part of the fairing may be higher than the top of the steering wheel.
    24.8 Secondary retraction spring is required on carb and/or throttle pedal.
    24.9 No engine monitoring or data acquisition is permitted.

    #49901
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I guess I missed this at the meeting, but what is the reasoning/justification on why kid karters can’t run engine monitoring or data acquisition systems?

    Angie, any idea when the Junior 1 rules are coming? Even if the are only “tentative” too?

    thanks for all your hard work,
    don

    #49902
    Angie MacEwen
    Participant

    Don,
    the Junior 1 rules will be available soon- sorry, that is the best I can say. I don’t think you are going to have any surprises, though. We are keeping Todd pretty busy – but believe me, he is working on it.

    As for the computers on the Kid Karts, there are arguements for and against this one. I don’t think that it is unreasonable to request that they are disabled just for qualifying and races.

    angie

    #49903
    hotwheels1517
    Participant

    Don,

    As far as the computers go I believe the reason they don’t allow them is to keep costs down. In most sanctioning bodies they also don’t allow for a rear gear change. The Kid kart normally runs an 89 rear gear. Keeping it low cost and simple for parent and the new kid to go karting.

    Brian Moore

    #49904
    Doug Welch
    Participant

    On the rear gear, there is a way around the fixed rear gearing but it costs money. If you use a narrow rear wheel, it rounds out the tire more effectively changing the gearing. I have made custom wheels for kid kart parents (not locally for with our open gearing its not an issue) and I can tell you that they are way more expensive than buying a few sprockets.

    This is a common case of misguided rules making. The idea of fixed gears was to limit speeds and reduce costs by limiting hte number of gears needed to purchase. But there are ways around it, expensive ways around it and some parents have plenty to spend.

    So here’s the choices, if you fix the gearing, they you should also spec a minimum width for the wheel. ( To prevent parents from buying a $200 set of custom billett wheels for the rear) You should also consider a maximum tire roll out to prevent creative stretching of the tires (Heating them in an oven under pressure to make them bigger).

    Or allow open gearing. Sprockets aren’t that expensive. Less than $100 in sprockets will cover all our tracks and you will be able to use them as you move up in class.

    On the other hand, if you go to the kid kart nationals, you will need to learn how to do the narrow wheel balloon tire tricks.

    Overall, the kid kart rules look very good.

    #49905
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Brian,

    Hey, missed you guys at the “Big” meeting. I understand what you are saying about the data acquisition and we didn’t run any of that kind of stuff and did very well in that class but to run a tach for $50 or MyChron3 is still just an option. But as we both know an extremely valuable tool especially as the driver and the mechanic grow in experience and eventually move up into the next class. In my opinion, if they really were trying to keep the cost down then there are several other areas to focus on such as not allowing them to run open bearings and seals. To the best of my knowledge, they can not run self-aligning bearings and 80 Comer seals at any other national kid kart class except here, so if any kid karters plan to run say ?Kid Kart Nationals,? they now have to first pay to add these items to their motors here to be competitive and then either have them removed or purchase another motor to run elsewhere. Really, if it is a cost issue then they should insist on a box stock kid kart with stock motor, 89 tooth sprocket, stock air box and muffler, etc. Just add gas and oil and go. That for sure would be a very cost-effective class and besides be very competitive too.

    Doug,
    To deal with that issue of running a fixed gear and then ballooning the tire as you mentioned is that they do measure the diameter around the tire and there is a max dimension it can be.

    My two cents,

    #49906
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Hi Don, Doug and Brian,

    Don and Brian, data acquisition is a tuning tool as you know. Why not learn about it now where you have less variables and it will be somewhat easier to come up to speed in Jr.1 2-stroke.
    Bearings and seal, in the IKF, KART and the KidKart Nationals. Bearings and seals are a non-tech item. Lets look at the pocket book. What’s more expensive, a good set of bearings, case realignment or a motor builder to put your engine back together after it was torn apart and sent home in a box, looking for bearings and seals. As for this engine (C-51) it is built to run a water pump @ 5600 rpm’s and as you know, we turn these over twice that. By having self aligning bearings you just eliminated cherry picked case halves due to mass manufacturing and poor quality. Lets remember, if this engine was built race specific from Comer with almost perfect tolerances the price just doubled. Self aligning bearings are a cheap price and a pretty good bandaid.
    As for a box-stock engine. That is called luck of the draw. I have many dyno sheets on out of the box engines that range from 1.6 HP to 2.2 HP, 9500 rpm to 13,000+ rpm. That is why IKF, WKA, KART and CSC/SKUSA has specifications (Minimums and Maximums) to equalize these engines. Bottom line some engines are just better than others.
    89 tooth sprocket, yes we need to align ourselves with the rest of the sanctioning bodies but with Jr.1 so out of hand with their rules. The jump from 2 hp to 12+ hp is a big jump and then there’s the Animal. Put it back on the lawn mower. Now back to the subject. Split the Kidkarts into 2 groups. Rookie–stock, All-Stars– “some” modifications. If we put the 89 tooth gear back on then you open up the door to the high dollar engines that will turn big numbers. So I propose we split the difference. A 76 gear period.
    Stock Air Filters, yes get in line with the rest of the sanctioning bodies.
    Stock Mufflers, yes,Save Our Ears and read the SKUSA rules. There is a section on db levels. Get in line with the rest of the sanctioning bodies.

    Doug,
    The maximum tire diameter with IKF, WKA, KART and the KidKart Nationals is 33 3/4″ and a 20 psi maximum.

    Scott Smith

    2004 KidKart nationals ruleshttp://www.slka.net/Documents/News/SLKA%20Kid%20Kart%20Nationals%20Rules.pdf

    #49907
    hotwheels1517
    Participant

    Wish I could have made it to the big meeting, was there in spirit. I am in California working. Have to make those big bucks to support are racing addiction. Will be in Norman Oklahoma in a couple of weeks for the first STARS race. As far as the data aquisition goes I am not against people having it. It is a wonderful tool for learning engine tuning as well as chassis setup. I was just saying that I believe the reason most bodies say no data aquisiton in kid kart is to keep initial costs down. Give a parent and kid there first fix free or no cost= ADDICTION. Drug dealers have been doing this for years. As far as the rules go for kid karts I am keeping out of that one, as I have no kid in that class.

    Brian Moore

    #49908
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Zip, I stand corrected; Kid Kart Nationals allowing race bearings and non-OEM seals goes to show how things change in one year, although my 2004 WKA rulebook doesn’t show these changes maybe the 2005 WKA rulebook will. 😯
    Now let me correct you and return a snide comment; the Animal has never been on a factory built lawn mower and unlike your Comers which you said yourself where nothing more than ?water pump? motors, the Animal motors were specifically designed for karting. What are you just scared and jealous of them?? 😆
    Regarding the splitting of the kid kart class, interesting concept, and good luck getting that through.
    Finally, by fixing the gear at any size, how does that stop anyone from putting money into their motor?

    Sorry just stressing out a bit while waiting for the Jr1 rules.

    BTW, where are my Comer 80 seals and Comer 50 rings?

    #49909
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Don,
    Bearing and seal are a tech item in WKA. And yes Don, I am just scared and jealous that when one of these Jr.1 4-stroke pilots tries to drive off riding my generator because it sounds like your riding go kart. oops… sorry

    Hey Brad that’s another class we need. Racing Riding Mowers They can use the old Kidkart rules: Run Wut cha Brung

    OK back to the subject:
    Splitting the class on a club level maybe if Rich Vito doses off and we are real quiet with our stock 2 factory hole mufflers. We just might get by with it.lol

    As for a fixed gear it puts us that much closer to what the rest of the country is doing.

    As for not having any Jr.1 rules yet, I do understand your frustration. Just pray your rules don’t have the T word infront of Jr.1

    Don, send me a PM with address and zip. I will send you some late presents.

    Scott Smith

    #49910
    Doug Welch
    Participant

    So those wheels I made last year for those Dads in Florida were a bunch of cheaten SOB’s huh? The only reason I brought up the ballooning tires was I knew some Dads out there were trying it so I thought it best to expose it. If you go the fixed gear route, then you need the max tire diameter rule to prevent ballooning tires to circumvent it.

    #49911
    swhannum
    Participant

    Everyone, first thanks for the information and debate it’s very helpful for someone like myself who is fairly new to this sport. All of the descussion and the proposed rules sound good overall to me. It sounds like a few technical (measurements, etc.) items need to be varified and that should be easy enough to do. As a general comment I see it boiling down to two main fundimental items and I don’t always hear it being prioritized :
    #1 Safety! We love our children and if we do not protect them no one else will. Some of you know my racing background and can imagine that I like going fast at least as much as anybody. However, even if the step from Kid Karts to Jr 1 is a little bit of a jump, the maturity and judgement level between a 5 year old and an 8 or 9 year old is massive. The single safest and cheapest thing we can do to the class is to limit the gear and yes a tire roll-out spec, (33 3/4″) is a must also, period. The safety and proper developement of the child should drive everything else. I heard of a Jr Dragster race last year that had high cross winds and some of the cars were getting out of shape at the top end. The parents were worried. The track management said keep going we need to finish. The parents said we’re not running. Bravo parents! The stock muffler will help too. Besides I can’t start and work on my kart anymore at home because it’s too loud. #2 It is important to be more in line with the rest of the country, for many reasons. Lets appreciate the learning curve that other groups have already been through. Two classes are fine but it must be driven by number of entries not by the desire and/or ego to go fast. I would love to have to split the class because we had 45 entries! But the dif. between the #22nd qualifier in the first group and the #1 qualifier in the second group is 1/2 second.

    For people who are actually in this class please be sure and submit your point by point comments regarding the proposed rules to Rob at [email protected] by this Fri. so that he can compile them and re-send them to all of us for review. I think we are all pretty close with maybe one or two exceptions. We want there to be enough time after we submit our comments that if we need to have a meeting together there will be enough time. Thanks for listening!

    Scott Hannum

    #49912
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Doug,
    The shockwave wheels I have with a bridgestone yhc’s will balloon to 33 9/16 if the rubber is new and/or a few heat cycles max. The only problem you have is the radius of the contact patch. There is another solution to fix that though and that is the big trick. Call me later.
    Scott Smith

    #49913
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Hi all,
    Someone brought to my attention about a 50 mph Kidkart in Florida that was on on stock gearing 10/89. WOW, that is one strong comer 50 or was there a second engine on that kart hidden somewhere. Wait, I know 8% grade for 5 miles and a 100 mph tail wind. Oh, I forgot no mountains in Florida but they do have hurricanes.lol Never the less, IF it had one engine on the kart and went that fast, IM IMPRESSED…
    Here is a little program I came up with to SMASH your theory. Plug the #’s and see for yourself.

    Scott Smith
    P.S. Can I sell you some Elvis sweat…
    http://www.gokartracing.org/Calculate.htm

    #49914
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    WOW thats a 14k motor, thats some stocker

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