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How far should we go with Tech for TaG?
Should the following be considered tech, or non-tech items:
Airbox: Should this be “as supplied” or should any CIK, 2-hole (22mm) box be allowed. In some cases – Leopard for one – being able to use a top-loading box would allow for a better filtration option for a dusty tracks.
Coolant system: How far should this go? As supplied throughout? or should pump, pump drive, hosing, mods to radiator to allow fittings, and possibly even radiator be non-tech?
Final Drive: Should belt-drive systems allowed if aftermarket parts are available?
I’m all for keeping engines “stock” . I have no particular objection to running the motor packages “as supplied”. However, there is an aftermarket pump out there that utilizes a toothed belt instead of a couple o-rings. Such a component makes tons of sense and doesn’t, or shouldn’t offer any sort of performance advantage. The rules suggest that this part would be illegal, but conversations I’ve had indicate that it may be otherwise. I’d like feedback and clarification.
Chaz,
I am going to get in trouble and say that common sense should rule these decisions. I can’t see any advantage to use a cogged belt for the sonics, etc instead of o rings. An improvement in reliability, yes; to improveperformance, no. I would rather see racing positions due to racing and not due to a fellow compeditor’s mechanical breakdown. That’s my nickel’s worth…
Mike Jansen
Rotax #27dCommon sense is a pretty fuzzy rule. Is there a problem with using the TAG USA rules as they are? I bleive that is the tentative plan for CSCin 2004.
Rod
@Rodw wrote:
Common sense is a pretty fuzzy rule. Is there a problem with using the TAG USA rules as they are? I bleive that is the tentative plan for CSCin 2004.
Rod
Common sense is pretty fuzzy and subject for debate.
However, in this case, some clarification is in order.
For instance, cqan someone tell just what the “stock” airbox for the Sonick is? Does the motor package ship with one, and if so, which box is it? Same goes for the pump. I know the parilla comes with a pump, but if there’s no real harm/foul in using an aftermarket shouldn’t we recognize that and declare such items “non-tech”?
Gentlemen,
I am okay with water pumps. Like i said, an engine being cooled is more important. Airbox, what came in the crate is what should be used. That is common sense.
Chaz,
I think you may be walking pretty close to the proverbial ‘slippery slope’.
What one considers to be a nonperformance enhancing component, could be open to interpretation. For example, if a toothed belt for the Leopard water pump is less likely to cause trouble, then I think it could easily be considered a performance issue. If some one isn’t happy with the Leopard pump, maybe they should consider another engine package.
I think it might be easy for someone to conclude that preventing failure, is indeed a performance enhancement.
Same with the Rotax air box. If you don’t like it, buy something else. I think all of the different TAG engine packages have their own oddities, or strong and weak points. The buyer of these packages should take them all into consideration when making the decision of which to race.
My personal opinion is to keep whats legal to what is supplied with the engine package.
Another area this impacts is fragmentation of the rules. I think its important for the TAG class to be as standard as possible, between clubs and around the country. If each club had their own version of TAG tech rules I worry about there ending up 16 different tag classes. Especially between different clubs.
Just my two pennies worth.
Loren
Some good points there Loren.
@Loren wrote:
Chaz,
I think you may be walking pretty close to the proverbial ‘slippery slope’.
What one considers to be a nonperformance enhancing component, could be open to interpretation. For example, if a toothed belt for the Leopard water pump is less likely to cause trouble, then I think it could easily be considered a performance issue. If some one isn’t happy with the Leopard pump, maybe they should consider another engine package.
Quite so, but this is why we should be clear on such subjects. The pump may or may not be a performance enhancing component. Whether it is or isn’t we should be clear on the technicality. If we have to stick with pumps as supplied, I’m totally okay with that, but if it’s gonna be a non-tech item, then I want a toothed belt setup asap and not after my o-rings give up, my pump fails and my engine melts.
I think it might be easy for someone to conclude that preventing failure, is indeed a performance enhancement.
Yes, but that is a bit of a stretch Loren. Much routine maintainence is to prevent failure. Switching chains, gears, carb adjustment, etc.
Same with the Rotax air box. If you don’t like it, buy something else. I think all of the different TAG engine packages have their own oddities, or strong and weak points. The buyer of these packages should take them all into consideration when making the decision of which to race.
Under our current rules the ‘Taxians can (I believe) opt for a CIK airbox. Common wisdom says that this will give the ‘Tax a couple more HP after the jetting is adjusted for the new flow. I couldn’t blame any Rotax pilot for wanting to be rid of the stock POS the motor comes with (Except Vito – he should be forced to run a stock airbox).
But if they can change then why shouldn’t the Leopard guys for instance? The stock box that ships with the Leopard package works fine, but lacks if you want to add some filtration because of our dusty tracks. The oilable foam filter you can get for that box robs about 2 hp from the engine and is a pain to work with. K&N makes a external paper element filter for CIK boxes that works really well and doesn’t rob as much HP, but it doesn’t fit the front – intake box. A top-intake box would be much better for this, but under the current rules…………
My personal opinion is to keep whats legal to what is supplied with the engine package.
Ultimately, this should be the way to go.
Another area this impacts is fragmentation of the rules. I think its important for the TAG class to be as standard as possible, between clubs and around the country. If each club had their own version of TAG tech rules I worry about there ending up 16 different tag classes. Especially between different clubs.
This is an important point and worth discussing. Keeping our TaG rules in line with TaG USA is important. Practical considerations need to be taken in a well though. Our ’03 weight rules were based on TaG USA rules but modified to suit our particular need to be as inclusive as possible and still maintain a large class. we didn’t have the numbers to warrant an International and a Masters class so we drew up weights that more or less bridged those two classes.
Being totally lock-step with a national rules program is fine, but local conditions sometimes dictatate otherwise
Just my two pennies worth.
And well said.
I would prefer to see the TaG karts to run as they came out of the box for a couple of reasons. I may want to run Rotax races and I don’t want to have to keep changing the kart to different sets of rules to be legal and competitive.
Also, one of the reasons I bought the Rotax is that they are tightly regulated in order to increase the competitiveness of the class and minimize the expenses. Liberalizing the rules would defeat this purpose.
If TAG USA changes its rules regarding the rotax and being able to change to a K22 needle and a CIK airbox I would hope that the CSC would look at adopting those changes. As TAG USA test have shown these modifications on the rotax do not affect the peak HP numbers they will help it out in other areas of the powerband (low-mind range) As people have mentioned the incovenience of having to change parts these are really very minimal. It takes me much longer to bolt on the extra weight to run CSC events than it would to change an airbox and needle so that really seems like a non-issue to me. If these changes are available I really hope that CSC allows us (rotax guys) to make them. I think it help keep the rotax competitive on the tight tracks. Just my $.02
I for one have always thought that jetting should be open. While a properly tuned engine will deliver more power than an inproperly tuned engine, a tuned engine really is more drivable throughout the power band. The two things that really change peak power are port timing and comperesion should not be allowed to be changed. I’m sure the CSC will adopt the TaGUSA specs regarding Roitax, particularly in light of our altitude. It makes a huge difference in tuning an engine.
Isn’t this is an “outlaw” type of deal. I really really don’t care one bit what TaG USA does. Seems like it’s just a deal to sell motors anyhow.
You’re going to kill the Rotax if you go with “what comes in the box”. Unfortunately given that two of the track owners support motors other than Rotax, they may not have a lot of motivation to help out the Rotax anyhow. My point is that the Rotax program is all about slightly de-tuning the motor as a trade off for longer life and less maintaince. Those Sonic’s motors can go like hell at 15,000 +RPM, but they won’t last long, and the electronic ignition on my Rotax doesn’t let me get about 11,000. The easiest and cheapest mods on the Rotax are the K22 needle and a less restrictive air filter. Let’s forget about a “CIK airbox”, do we really need to worry about the noise factor? We won’t be louder than the shifters. Lets just go with open air filter and use an easier to use shifter type airfilter.
It probably doesn’t really matter anyways, the 15,000, 1 hour Sonic’s will probably be the dominant motor next season. Or at least until they come up on traffic!
Jeff, a Sonik revs up to 18000+, 15000 is where you will get 20+hours on a piston if you do not exceed the 15k mark. The IAME Parilla boys recomend that 15k be the maximum rev that the leopard goes for the long life deal. The leopard manuel shows ratios that had the engine in excess of 17500, it is your choice to rev the motor to the moon, there is no need to unless its racing time to rev an engine like that. To bring this into perspective, I believe all TaG motors but the Vortex and Rotax do not have restrictions before , the revs are your choice. The Leopard does not require you to run that high to be competitive, if you have only enough gear to get to 15000, it will still be super competitive, just not in the corners, but it will haul down that straightaway like it has boosters. The Sonik has more top end down the straight, the only definite experiance I have w/ a Sonik was at IMI on a test day, the driver in the Sonik was probably 20+lbs lighter than me and tuned a little better, even with race weight, I still would kill the thing in the corners, but he would always pass me on the straights. If i wanted extreme overkill, I could do the same, but its only testing. In my opinion, the best “TaG” motors are the Leopard due to the popularity, parts, service and great power (not to mention the almost zero battery maintanace) and the Sonik because it is basically an ICA with a battery and 18 more CCs. Plus no silly seal for both, if the Sonik had more dealers in the USA, it would be a more popular package.
Worries about the Sonik may be a moot point. If the importer does not submit it for inclusion for next year it may not even be listed as a TAG motor for TAGUSA and assuming we adopt their guidelines for next year in the CSC it won’t be an issue.
No it has power, depends on how you gear it, tune the exhaust, and drive it. If you are good to it, it is good to you. No one should say it has no power through the turns when most leopards were passing 4+ people at a time in vegas, myself and many more included (yes bilands were passed by us through the turns) THat flex piple makes a BIG difference also.
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