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If the rules were released May 1st – that would give everyone 6 days to comply…
just an observation 😉
Jim
You bring up a couple of good points, particulary around “legacy” cases and why we should or should not allow them. Why 10#?
The reason to allow legacy cases is based on the idea that old motos will come out of the garages to play if they can put the stock stuff back on the top side. This argument has some validity for in those areas that have tried it, it did result in a few more entires. I have had customers here locally express just such interest. So I do think that allowing legacy cases will result in a few more entires.
This leads to the next big question, will they have an advantage and do we need to handicap them with weight? Will guys alter new cases if there is an advantage?
Old cases will usually be altered in the following ways. The intake track will opened up to accomdate the larger read cages we used to use. By using the stock reed cage, this may well be a disadvantage as the intake track will be too large. In a 2 cycle engine, intake and exhaust track volumns are very importiant in power development. Bigger is not always better. It’s the matching that’s important. The altered cases were matched for a larger reeed cage, not a smaller one. Bottom line, this alteration shouldn’t be an advantage, maybe a disadvantage.
The second place is lineboring of the crank bearings. The reason we have to linebore the cases is mainly due to the welding done to remove the kick start boss. This improves power but very slightly. Slight advantage to the legacy cases here.
The third are is the blending and porting of the transfer ports. When the ported top end was bolted to the ported bottom end, big power gains. However, bolting a stock top end to a ported bottom end will really hurt power. Now the port will have a wall or step in the flow path and it will really create turbulance. A modified bottom end and a stock top end should be worse than all stock parts. This should be a big disadvantage to the legacy cases.
It is impossible to predict exactlly how legacy cases will actually perform relative to the new stockers. Legacy cases were all modified so differently, exact comparisons are difficult at best. We have to go on our experience and our gut feelings on this one.
Where did the 10# come from. Out of thin air. But it is two fold in its reasoning. First, perception is that altered cases MIGHT be an advantage so we have to handicap them some how. and secondly, would a guy alter new cases if there was NO penality.
This brings us back to tech. How do we control this? First, the racer should register his legacy cases at the start of the season. They do have a serial number If a racer who is found to have altered cases who did NOT register them, they should be bounced for the season. Put in a penality with teeth.
Secondly, term limit them. Personally, I think one year is enough although others advocate 2 years. Let them in for one year only. If racer know up front we are just letting them in for the first year to build the class, they will know that down the road they have to bring the engine into compliance. The first year they buy a new cylinder, head, reed cage, intake manifold and ignition. (They may have the reed cage, ignition and manifold already, just not using them.) The second year, new cases. They know up front the costs. But at least we get them racing again. Lets be up front about this, not whack them on the back side.
The idea of calling the stock Honda was never a good idea. The only stock Honda is one taken from a motorcycle and it dosen’t have all the “right” parts (6 speed gear box). Almost every Honda engine found on a kart did not come from Honda motorcyle company, it came from Honda Motorcyle PARTS company. When you buy a stock Honda from Honda, it is actually a box full of parts. Somebody has to assemble it and that somebody is NOT an employee of Honda Motorcyle company. Just that fact alone opens up variables. Who would do a better job, a kid in a motorcyle shop or a Paul Leary? Pipes and silencers do not come from Honda, nor the carburator. So how can we call it “stock” when critical parts do not come from Honda?
If we go back to the origins of the class, it was orginally called spec Honda by Alex Baron and JR Clasen. The concept is not new, they did this 6 years ago. We just forgot.
This is where the rules devleoped by Dave Larsen are so good. We have dimensions to tech, we have tools to tech with. The rules are so tight that you really can’t do anything to the motor other than adjust timing. If we follow these rules, a guy can put together a kit using just the parts from the kit, it will be legal and develop max hp.
There are only two places he can “gain” power. First, do a good job on the power valve plugs. A racer should employ a builder with experience for this job. Second, adjust the timing. There is one more thing to do. It doesn’t gain power but it makes it eaiser to take the thing apart. Polish the crank journals. That’s it, no facey tuning, no expensive builder, just hours of good clean fun!
As far as a tuning guide, such a thing exists. http://www.kartweb.com has extensive tuning tips and guides available free to all who want them. There is a complete listing of the companies supporting the class to get all the parts they need.
The best thing to tell a customer is, buy the standard 1999 kart motor kit from one of Honda’s thousands of outlets. Pay a few bucks to have a professional put it together. Most quality builders charge around $250 bucks to do it. If you want to go the extra step, spend another $350 to have them dyno tune the timing. If they do that, they will be getting the maximun legal hp, their motor will be legal just about everywhere in the country.
I keep on thinking about the word stock – like stock car – stock yamaha – stock moto.
Surley a “stock car” is not bought from say a chevy dealer and raced at daytona… it’s because NASCAR listed a set of rules that called out how the car was supposed to be built – purpose built rules…
Stock yamaha – well, it was a purpose built motor for karts with specs listed by yamaha – I don’t think I really mind calling it stock – all that ment is that it conformed to the published specs by Yamaha. You could go anywhere in the nation, tell a engine builder to blueprint the thing, and you would be compliant – that was nice.
Stock Moto? Considering you have to modify the thing from the start i.e. removing / plugging power valves – it certianly is not stock. Since this motor started as a motorcycle engine – there is no published spec for our application. What if, within the karting industry, there was a spec associated with what a cr125 adapted for kart use would be – then could you say Stock Moto?
Thanks,
Gary
Doug great post the only question, North America is out of 99 kits and barrels now What??????? I got the only two last week that I know exsist what about the new guys???? Any news on any coming to the US???
Garett
While it’s true Honda is back ordered on cylinders, there are still plenty of them out there in the supply chain. There has been a bit of hoarding going on but I made some calls last week and found both kits and cylinders. The sources right now that don’t have any are the ones that don’t normally stock them like Service Honda. They just order from Honda as they sell them.
I have not talked directly with Honda, but I’ve been told that there are plenty of cylinders on the boat heading over here. According to Marty Casey who has talked directly with Honda, they have something like 700 cylinders on the way over right now. So I’m not at all concerned about it.
The bigger question is, do we sacrifice the long term stability of the class because of a short term shortage of parts? If we don’t make the right decisions now, we screw up the class forever! I’m not willing to damage the long term stability of the class because of a two month shortage of parts. Am I the only one who thinks this is shortsighted?
I actually view this temperary shortage as a good thing. First, it means we are selling karts and people are moving into the sport. Its about time sales were going upwards. Secondly, we have an impact on Honda and believe me, they are paying attention. Honda fills the supply chain based on past sales. With lots of sales, that means they will fill the supply chain. So maybe we hurt for a month of two. That’s better than making a mistake that hurts the long term stability of the class.
However, I do understand the pressures to open it up. But that’s so typical of karting and Americans in general. “I want it right now, screw tomorrow.” I’m much more worrried about next year, not this week.
Some food for thought. Not a single road race organization in the country allows the 2001. Ask yourself a simple question, if they are the same, why not?
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