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By now you’ve probably all seen the ’05-’06 SKUSA rule change previews posted on their website and ekartingnews. There’s lots of fuel in there for lengthy forum threads.
Since we had such fun discussing Jr1 rules for next year, I thought I’d start another thought-fest with a suggestion: Why don’t we make our Novice 125 class align with SKUSA’s S3 class for next year? Moto only, no porting, stock ignition, lower compression ratio, spec pipe, etc.? Looks to me like a big $ and time savings, and would keep me from considering TaG. The guys with ICCs can move up to Sr/Hvy or Pro next year (they won’t be novices any longer anyway).
Looking to hear from those shifters that only do test and tune days, as well as current racers…..
We discussed that last year, 99% of engines have been ported and they all have a pipe. You can’t make everyone buy a new cylinder, pipe and head, won’t happen.
I would like to share some thought and opinions for the series next year. I usually do not respond to much on the forum. But the issues for next year I believe are important for the series to grow and prosper in Colorado. I think we should separate the comers into their own class now that SKUSA has added the class as a separate cadet class. The rest of the country runs them in their own class why can’t we. The comers are not competitve with the briggs as evident by the results this year. Also it allows my racers to race in national events. If we want to run the SKUSA events we can. Also we can attract more out of state people to our CSC events because we have a class that the rest of the country runs. Maybe other parents and racers would come if the comers ran by themselves rather than with an obviously higher horse motor. I think the age limits for novice shifter should be looked at as well. The SKUSA age is 9-13 for novice shifters. I think we should follow their age limits. I also think we should develop a system of licensing the drivers before the over ambitious parent allows their child on the track. I have witnessed several incidents this year with new drivers, in all classes, that should not be there until they have some knowledge of track ettiquette (hope I spelled that right) and driving ability. These are children and their safety should come before any of our own thoughts of winning. I also believe there should be more rolled black flags for bad or wreckless driving. One rolled flag warning, second time DQ. End of story. The track owners must put safety first as top priority. Right now we have, buy a kart and go race so we can collect your money. We put other drivers and children at risk when we do that. These are things to bring up now so we can start dicussions for next year, early. Get the rules out and in place now so we can have a plan long before the season starts. I believe we should have a drivers and parents meeting in Oct or Nov. Then follow that up with a second meeting to clarify any outstanding issues. Then have the rule book published by December. The drivers should then have to go to the track and demonstrate their ability to be able to run in the series and the classes they wish to run in. I for one think Doug has done a heck of a job promoting this series with what he has had to work with. And Ang has kept us all extremely informed as a volunteer. Track owners I congratulate you on your willingness to work together to make this happen so far. However, this has become big enough now to get some organization going on and stop flying by the seat of our pants. We need some professionalism here.
Track owners must come together and provide detailed organization and rules and safety procedures to further enhance our series. The biggest problem is the constant complaining and rumors from the parents. I for one am tired of it. This comes from the fact that there are not enough specifics in the rules and leaves a lot of gray area out there. If there was a designated tech director with specific rules to aid him/her. And the tech director has the final say no matter how much you complain. Ther shoul also be a safety coordinator that insures the safety of all patricipants and spectators and workers that is consistent at ALL the tracks. Like trained corner workers that work every event. So with that in mind let’s get an early start this year and do it even better for next year. Can’t think of anything better to do when the snow starts falling.
This is a great series and event and I would like to see it get better and continue to grow.My thought and opinions only,
Zipnby racers Dad
I’m not asking anyone to buy a new cylinder, head, and pipe, but let’s call that class of engine what it should be: S2. Modified motos can run with the ICCs here in an S2 class (of course, we could go even further and have a separate ICC class like SKUSA, but I won’t get into that). Make novice truly novice. Right now we are making newbies spend an extra $1400+ on the engine, and change pistons and bottom ends 2-3x more often, and spend more time tuning the engine, and deal with a peakier power curve, so they can avoid being a rolling chicane in “novice”.
I’d also bet there would be a few current novice 125 racers that might even like to take their engines back to stock to avoid the extra time and expense.
I got the new issue of SKI last night, and their article on the stock moto class makes this case better than I am. If our participation keeps growing, we’ll need room to expand, and a stock moto class would be a pretty sexy alternative to TaG for a low maintenance class.
I also agree with Mr. Zipnby on the Comer Cadet class, and second his motions on the organizational procedures.
@zipnby racing wrote:
I think we should separate the comers into their own class now that SKUSA has added the class as a separate cadet class.
Not a bad idea, but in keeping with the original series of limited classes (12), it would mean dropping an existing class. Do you want to name the class? You must also consider how many Comer 80s will run next year dropping on low-support class in favor of another is likely to meet with resistance, no matter how good of an idea it is.
As far as what SKUSA does with their class schedule goes, karting in CO has always resisted going lockstep with any organization.
The comers are not competitve with the briggs as evident by the results this year.
I disagree. Sullivan’s Comer is running 2nd or 3rd in the points (or very close to it – using 1 drop) under CSC class guidelines. If the Sullivan kid can run that well in a CSC-legal Comer, anybody can. I’d agree that the Comers on average aren’t competetive, but consider that the best drivers in the the class (Whetstone, Burton, New, etc.) run Briggs it can appear that the Comer package isn’t competetive. IMHO The engines are quite competetive under CSC rules. It’s the drivers that are unequal.
Also it allows my racers to race in national events.
Well, your racers can still race in National events, regardless – as long as your karts conform to the National on race weekend.
Also we can attract more out of state people to our CSC events because we have a class that the rest of the country runs.
This issue has been gobe over a lot and it seems the consensus is that CSC is for Colorado and not a multi-state regional series.
Out-of-state drivers are always welcome (the Betts come up from NM), but they run under our rules. If they can’t or won’t, so sorry.I think we should follow their age limits. I also think we should develop a system of licensing the drivers before the over ambitious parent allows their child on the track.
I agree with this in principal. There are always drivers in any class who clearly belong in the lower ranks, but setting up a program for that in CSC would be insanely difficult, if not impossible. Plus, do you want to tell some parent who dumped several thousand dollars in to a 60 shifter, that their kid can’t race it and they have to go back and buy another Jr 1 if they want to race?
These are children and their safety should come before any of our own thoughts of winning.
Safety concerns should NEVER be limited to children. If you want to see what I mean, come over and take a look at what my shoulder has cost in the last year and what the impending surgery will run. I am so over-the-top sick of all this safety for the kids talk while safety for the rest of the racers gets set aside – like it’s okay that us old guys get mangled. We make jokes about it for cryin out loud. Everybody gets all bent out of shape when a kid gets rubbed a little too aggressively, I damn near get killed in a wreck (no exageration) and the same later on from complications and people joke about it. I don’t want to see anyone get hurt I don’t care how old they are. A 9 year-old kid getting worked in a crash is every bit as horrible ans an adult and vica-versa.
That said, in motorsports the idea of winning is paramount. If winning wasn’t involved it wouldn’t be racing. It would be driving. In wanting to win a driver MUST take risks and thats dangerous. If the danger associated with the risk isn’t acceptable………..
Most of the problems associated with safety in the youth ranks comes part-and-parcel with the size of the field and the breadth of experience that the field shows. These wrecks are usually early in the season, and mid-pack at the start or lapped traffic late. Either way it points to lack of experience. That speaks to your licensing idea, but it comes back to telling some dad that he wasted thousands, because his kid is so slow our safety standards prohibit his driver from competeing and gaining valuable experience.
I also believe there should be more rolled black flags for bad or wreckless driving. One rolled flag warning, second time DQ. End of story.
No argument there.
….there are not enough specifics in the rules and leaves a lot of gray area out there. If there was a designated tech director with specific rules to aid him/her. And the tech director has the final say no matter how much you complain.
No argument, but we were supposed to have a tech director this year. Guess it didn’t work out. The only way we’ll get a tech director is if we find somebody qualified and equipped and pay them. If that happens, get ready for higher entry fees.
Get the rules out and in place now so we can have a plan long before the season starts.
Excellent idea.
Ther shoul also be a safety coordinator that insures the safety of all patricipants and spectators and workers that is consistent at ALL the tracks.
Yup, and see the how the entry fee grows.
Like trained corner workers that work every event.
Great idea. Expensive, too. In SCCA it takes 2 days of classroom trainning (flagging, communications, first aid, driver extraction and fire suppression) to be a corner worker, then you work under close supervision by a corner captain. A proper corner staff comprises at least three people (yellow/oil flagger, blue/red flagger & corner captain), all with flags, radios, fire extinguishers, brooms and so on. Right now its a major problem to get enough people to flag just the problem corners. They aren’t properly trained or equiped, and don’t know the first thing to do with a potentially injured driver. To properly staff a corner crew, you’d need a minimum of 18 workers to cover only six corners, about 400 bucks worth of radio gear each, about 200 each for trainning, add proper uniforms (for visibility), flags, tools, other support, backup personel and ongoing trainning/drills as well as an ongoing recruitment program. We haven’t even talked compensation yet. Along with the expensive radios, you’d have to find a communication director, to make sure all the radios are in working order for the race. Having a race director who can pay attention to the race and not be hounded by irate racers is a BIG plus. ez-up shelters and chairs for each crew so they don’t have to stand out in the sun all day. And refreshment. Transporation for equipment. And Lunch (SCCA workers are often given steak dinners after the race for their trouble).
As you can see, safety is not an easy, or inexpensive undertaking. But when you’re talking safety, a lot is better than a little. Unfortunately, that doesn’t come free. To get to that point, there would need to be a lot more organization and outside funding (sponsorship) than the CSC currently has. It would a tough row to hoe, but it could be done if the will to achieve was great enough.
But that’s true of just about everything you cite. It becomes a question of how far are the people involved in CSC – owners, sponsors, participants – willing to go.
Chaz,
James Michael Sullivan now has an Animal, I just did not change the results page info. Sorry.Is there even a single Comer left in the field?
We won’t be making classes for every engine out there. I have not seen more than 3 Comer 80’s come to any of our races. If there were 10-15 that would show up to every race it may be possible but I don’t think there are that many in the state. What does the SKUSA cadet class have to do with the Comer 80’s?
Here’s is my stream of consciousness…
I think we should use lights to start the races. If we keep the corner workers, we should take away their black flags, they never use them anyway.
Safety should continue be secondary to winning. Safety should continue to be secondary to upsetting the parents. T-boning another driver should continue to be referred to as “good, clean racing” so that nobodys feelings get hurt.
We shouldn’t really bother with tech. If we tech, we should warn everyone that we are going to examine every engine component down to the atomic level, but in reality, do it in a very superficial way so as to never catch anything. This “going through the motions” on tech will continue to ensure the health and welfare of the”clever engine builders” cottage industry. Clever engine builders will continue to build cheater motors that, in turn, will get bought by ambitious parents who want to instill the “win at any cost” value system in their children. “There are cheaters and there are losers.”
We should continue to force the comers to run with the Animals so that the Animals can continue to drive by them at will. Passing the hapless comers is excellent for the self esteem of the young animal driver !
If you take the antithesis of what I said above, you will understand my feelings on having Meaningful safety and tech. We can have all the rules we want but if nobody implements them, it meaningless.
Ok, I feel better now.
@Angie MacEwen wrote:
Chaz,
James Michael Sullivan now has an Animal, I just did not change the results page info. Sorry.Is there even a single Comer left in the field?
Wow!
My bad! I could have sworn he had a Comer last Time I saw him race.
Jeff………Very well said. I believe we should tech our classes like they do in other places, draw a number out of a hat and that number would represent a specific tech item. Example, #1 would be fuel #8 would be cam ect……And that number would be selected at the drivers meeting before the race. This would mean that tech would be performed at every race.
To help out, I would be willing to do tech of other classes other than the ones we run in if I was given proper instruction on what to look for and check.
As for that black flag, well I think if it gets used and everyone knows there going to get it if they try and run over someone that they might think twice!
This should also apply to BLOCKING………We have all been very luck that no one has been seriously hurt as of yet but our luck is going to run out sometime!!!!!!!!!!
Just my 2 cents
Mike EdwardsRich, I can only assume you are speaking of us, since Cole is the young driver in the Novice field. I don’t want to get overly defensive – because safety is paramount to me, as well. The age for the Novice Shifter is 9 – 13, but as has been said, exceptions are made, on an individual basis. We did not just throw Cole in there without clearing it first.
I haven’t heard any complaints about Cole’s driving- on the contrary, we are continually told by many that he is a very consistent driver and doing a good job – if he wasn’t then we wouldn’t be doing it. We really wanted to help keep the Novice class alive, it has been struggling for awhile, and we did not want it to disappear, and we knew that he would be driving against the same kids that he raced with in Junior 1. It wasn’t a snap decision, our family spent countless hours in the off season at the track. Literally every weekend that there wasn’t snow on the track, we were there. Cole really enjoyed shifting, and so we considered letting him race it. We made sure he was within a reasonable time for the class, and warned him it would take extra effort on his part to be ready.
There are drivers in many classes – at least three others that I can think of off hand, that are younger than the rules show. I think any training or licensing program is a good idea, as long as it is organized and implemented decently. A program that wasn’t would do more damage than good! It is not the age of the driver, but his/her skills as a driver and their ability to react to situations on the track. Cole proved to us that he could be consistent, smooth, and safe on the track.
I would ask right here and now that anyone that feels Cole is dangerous to himself and/or others on the track, please let me know now.
As for the rules, tech, race procedures, etc. I am all for it. Anyone who has been on the forum since the beginning must know my thoughts on this. It is good to see the ideas and concerns flowing. I don’t think anyone – racer, track owner, parent, or sponsor – takes the issue of safety lightly. This time around we just need to make sure that changes are implemented and followed through.
Angie MacEwen
[email protected]PROUD MOM OF NOVICE SHIFTER #4
Since people seem to be venting and suggesting changes for next year here is my take.
I think 12 classes is too many. The kart counts in some of the divisions supports this. I think we should look at a participation count and cut the 2 or 3 least participated classes. My son might be in one of them. I wouldn’t have a problem with that if I knew about it 3 or 4 months before the next season started. It sure beats watching 3, 4, or 5 Karts run in “race” by themselves and extending a long race day even longer. My son Mark didn’t want to go to a IMI club race because he knew he would be 1 of a class of 3, he wanted me to put an animal together so he could race against a full field in jr1. If the track owners could get their classes posted by November and give everybody 5 months to fit into those classes I think a podium finish would mean a whole lot more. Steves 5th, 6th, or 7th place finish in Jr1 will mean more than Marks 2nd or 3rd in Novice class due entirely to kart count.
We didn’t get out of Bandi until after 8:00, how do you think the west slope karters liked that, or even the people north of IMI. We were there for 14 hours for less than 1 hour of track time. We need to make the race days shorter. Of the 5 races so far, 3 or 4 of them got over after 5:00.My $.02
Angie,
Sorry to put you on the defensive. However I was not speaking of Cole. Your familyand cole I know have spent countless hours of driving even before you enter a race. Cole is one of the best drivers in that 7-12 year old category I have seen. He always demonstrates more than capable driving skills and I for one know you and Ken spend alot of time at the track. I was more refering to the inexperienced drivers who buy a kart and show up to race without even knowing what the color of the flags mean. The thought of a 5-7 year old in some of these extremely fast karts with virtually no track time scares the heck out of me. Or for the old guys the thought of me in a S1 shifter with virtually no track time should scare you too! Or for that matter how to hold a line when faster drivers are approaching. Hence the need for experienced corner workers to put the proper flag out that the driver knows what to do. I have really enjoyed the races so far in the novice shifter class because the drivers out there demonstrate good driving skills. And all the motors seem to be close in power range. As for blinks coment there were 6 or 7 comers at the beginning of the year and now ther are one or two because they are not competitive with the animals. Two of the comers are now in the novice shifter class and the other now has an animal. Blink, the comers left dodge because they were not competitive. I dont have a problem running together with the 4cycles however they should be scored differently. Next year as my twins move up we will be running the comers as that is what they have been practicing with all summer. And I don’t need to go out and spend more money to buy animals!!!!! You see if we run national events my motors work for SKUSA, IKF and WKA!!! The novice shifter class will continue to grow as well because you dont have to be a rocket scientist or millionare to have your driver competitive. As far as the money goes to have safer and more organized and professional events. I think if someone actually helped Doug, the sponsorship level could be increased. You see there are no roadblocks to accomplish what we racers want just a little initiative, time and effort. Lets look at what we can do instead of what we can’t.
My three cents worth
Zipnby racers dad
I do not see a problem at all with Cole running a shifter. He has never in the times we have been at the track been a safety issue. I started my son straight from a comer 50 into a shifter kart at age seven. It only took about three hours for him to get the shifting down to an art. If there is any class that I am afraid for my sons safety it is in the Jr.1 class. However the only way to get experience is to practice and race. If there are those out there that don’t want to take the risk then don’t race. If it’s fun then there is danger involved. Would rather be hurt myself then to not enjoy life. I have comer 80’s and would love for a comer 80 class. The track owners could make more money off me. I would run my son in three classes. Comer 80, jr1, and novice shifter.
My three cents worth,
Brian Moore
father of Brandon #77I would have to agree with Karterdad, that fewer clases are needed. Using daylight, on a race day, for a 3-5 kart field is crazy and boring! We should make classes now, so in the off season teams have time to get the correct equipement come race season. Having a championship trophy would sure mean a lot more if the feild you were competing against was much bigger.
$ .02
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