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The tube can wear as the needle is pulled up and down in it. They are not modified, they are worn out.
Have done extensive search online for anything to do with Rotax emulsion tube wearing out or manufacturing defects. Nothing. With an estimated 40 EVO Rotax carbs running in CO and 8+ illegal tubes found (nearly 25%) this would be a world wide issue with much discussion and I would expect that Rotax would have produced an advisory or alert to its Rotax reps on this big issue as it isn’t a normal “wear” item. Have found several articles/posts about rampant emulsion tube cheating in Canada that was stopped when the responsible parties were called out but again, nothing on wearing out or anything else.
Please explain how with aluminum needle and brass tube, the aluminum doesn’t wear out at the same or faster rate than the brass? From what I can find, normal emulsion tube wear (ovaling) happens on machines that idle excessively (farm machinery, cars over 20,000 miles, etc.) where the needle vibrates in constant contact with the tube for long periods of time to wear away the surface or where steel or titanium needles are used on uncoated brass tubes. Ovaling causes poor engine performance, not enhanced. Rotax runs very, very little at idle (hopefully) and if you take off the air box, the only time the needle even touches the tube is at idle. If it was hitting the tube going in an out, there would be clear tracks in the brass from the needle strike or the surface of the needle would be clearly worn.
For fun, called Rotax engine builders on east and west coast asking if they have heard of this, without hesitation, first words were “cheater tubes” and they had never heard of emulsion tube wearing to the point of being illegal and have never experienced out of spec tubes from the factory.
Many Rotax racers have run the new carbs for over three years on the local and national level and tubes are well within factory spec but some locals have been DQ’d twice in 6 months for illegal tubes. Are they running sandpaper on their needles?
Happy to see/hear any Rotax specific data on the unusual wear on the tubes in Colorado or elsewhere. Happier to have the parties who are making/using them to step up and claim their handywork and stop it. As rampant (25%) as this is, any race results where tubes aren’t checked are in question and for what? A $12 trophy?
Everest Fedler has an illegal Mohawk shaved into his head with a weed wacker by his cheater father. It creates a wind vortex in his helmet that is channeled out the back as thrust in clear violations of the rules. They blatantly use this illegal hairdo to be a couple of tenths faster than everyone else and for the $12 trophy. They are bad. We should build a wall around them. I called some East Coast and West Coast people who said they’re probably Al Qaeda.
See, I can state outrageous crap and claim is as “fact” too.
I don’t know who you are “ColoKart” and I actually hope you remain anonymous because I do not wish to know you. However, you are accusing children and their parents of willfully cheating and our community is small enough that we all know who you are accusing. You are accusing families of cheating and other families of facilitating the cheating through their businesses and volunteering. You’ll claim you aren’t, but you are and we all know it. So I’ll address it for you.
First, the facts, I’ve no idea whether Marc and Derek woke up Saturday, looked at each other, and said “Let’s run the cheater emulsion tube today!”. I do know this. Derek out qualified the rest of the field by 0.3+ seconds. There isn’t an emulsion tube in the world worth 0.3 seconds. Maybe, just maybe, we can look at the fact that Derek has been an outstanding driver for many years and he was simply better than his competitors last weekend. That’s my conclusion. Good job Derek. Bummer about your DQ. It happens.
As far as the CKT goes, I can only assume that you are referring to my children Max and Everest who, if not the fastest Junior and Senior racers in Colorado, certainly are among the fastest. So again, let’s go with the facts.
• At the CSC at IMI last year, Everest’s emulsion tube failed qualifying tech. The pin that was used for testing did pass through but “hung up” in the tube. However, he was not DQ’d. I guess the reason was the pin was measured out of spec.
• Regardless, we replaced the emulsion tube with another one “straight out of the bag” from Rotax and Everest went out and won the Heats and Main races. We then went to the CSC race in September with the same carb and Everest won everything. Qualifying, Heat, Main. Passed tech each time. That’s not cheating, that’s winning.
• In all our years of racing, neither Max nor Everest has ever been DQ’d from any event, session, etc. EVER.
Maybe, just maybe, kids like Derek, Max, and Everest (and Cody, Liam, Hannah, Alexis, etc, etc.) just work their butts off to get where they get. Maybe they put in the time. Maybe they’ve earned the respect they deserve. Maybe, just maybe, the “times they’re laying down” are a result of their effort. I’ve got lots of faults. I know I’m overly emotional at the races and I’m working on that. I’m wrong a lot and I have to apologize a lot. But to be accused of cheating after the years of effort my boys have put in to move from the back of the grid to the front? That creates an emotion I won’t apologize for. Some say being accused of cheating is the greatest compliment in racing. I say it’s the greatest jealousy in racing. You want our $12 trophies? Fine, they’re in a box in the basement ready for shipping.
All that aside, I know a lot of you don’t buy into these BS claims. I know most of you respect the work these kids put in. But since these days some people just choose to believe what they want and only the “facts” that support their view – I WILL PUT MYSELF TO THE TEST. I invite anyone in Colorado to inspect Everest’s engine and carb. It is in Greg’s trailer at Centennial and untouched since IMI. We are out of town until June 26 so we won’t be involved. Here’s how it will work:
1. You arrange a time with Greg to have him tear down the motor and/or carb in front of you and anyone you wish to have there.
2. You collectively inspect all or as many parts as you want.
3. At the end, the engine must be rebuilt and ready for Everest to race the weekend of July 9.
4. If there are any illegal parts, I will pay for everyone’s time, post all of the illegal parts here, and write to the boards of the CKT and CSC with the findings and accept their judgement as to whether we should be allowed to compete going forward.
5. If there are no illegal parts, you will pay for everyone’s time including the engine/carb rebuild. And then you will contact Marc, Derek, Max, and Everest and apologize to them for accusing them of cheating. You will also apologize to Greg whom you are implying is facilitating the cheating (yes, you are implying this…).Fair enough?
Another option that is even easier – slap yourself on the forehead and say “I wish I hadn’t done that. Maybe I’m wrong.”. I do that all the time. Not this time though…
Okay, there’s no proof that the tubes are wearing out, this is total speculation. I know from working most of the Maxspeed events in the last 4 plus years is that tuners and some engine builders are buying hundreds of these tubes at a time trying to find the largest ones, we have also found some that have been drilled out.
Any emulsion tube that is bought should be checked……Dellorto who manufactures the carb doesn’t check each tube just like they don’t check each jet. These are not racing carbs and therefore are not built to a very tight tolerance.
The lesson learned here is it’s up to you to check each one.
Until someone can prove to me that they are wearing out I’m not buying it.
Don’t waste your time with something like this…..practice more and learn to tune your kart there’s way more speed to be found there then any emulsion tube or other bullshit engine gimmick!
Mike Edwards
100% agree Mike. Well said. For what it’s worth, I would speculate that the tubes are taken out of the package out of spec. How many 120 main jets from Rotax pin out at 120? 2 of 10…
The local racers, I believe, are good people and are not deliberately cheating, but rather don’t know to check these parts.
If I work any races going forward, I’m always willing to do a courtesy check for anyone.
Mike
I agree with Mike no one is intentionally cheating. Mike is one of the best and has always been more than helpful checking anything for us that is in question which includes checking our emulsion tubes, squish etc.
We have so many fast kids in Colorado right now and it unfortunately is really sad how low the turnouts have been. I don’t know what the real cause is but would like to hear why people are not showing up. So many people that love the sport are trying to do the best they can to give us all a place to race and do their part for very little if any compensation. When they finally get tired and give up what are we going to do then?
As a track owner it makes zero financial sense to hold a karting event right now. If we didn’t love the sport and the people we would not hold a single kart race at GJMS and instead focus on rental and corporate events which is what pays the bills at most facilities.
Greg now has rental and corporate events up and rolling and i believe they will run it professionally and like it should be which means they will be so busy with rentals and corporate events that financially it will make zero sense to support any racing. If that happens and both GJMS and Podium are gone what will happen to the racing? I believe karting in Colorado is in terrible trouble and the next few years are going to be interesting.
We all dream of the old CSC days when we had 150 entries and incredible racing with 30+ 125 pro shifters and all the classes running with big fields, now everyone sits on the sidelines and talks about how fast they are then gets on the internet and complain about everything.
Lots of incredible people in the Colorado karting community it is to bad we all can’t work together and leave the drama at home.
Stacey Cook
GJMSHi Stacey,
We’re doing our best to support both series as we did last year. Everest got a bit banged up at the last race and isn’t allowed in his kart for six weeks (doctor’s orders) – we were planning on being there and running LO206 until that point. I agree with you on getting people out. 12 combined weekends between the two series is pretty tough, but the boys want to support Colorado racing and also race their friends.
We’ll try to make the last two CSC rounds and as many CKT races as the schedule allows.
See you at Road America next weekend??
Purposely did not call out any individuals to avoid the emotional blame game since many individuals have been DQd for this. Sorry to see someone chose to call out specific individuals and make personal assumptions. Was calling out whoever is making these tubes. Some who have been DQ’d may in fact be innocent recipients of them.
I put out an issue to get real discussion for the betterment of all. No ax to grind just want it cleaned up and stopped.Respect and know who puts in the effort so why hate someone who is trying to legitimize that effort by trying to stop cheating so it is very clear that those who have put in effort are legitimately deserving and celebrated, regardless of who that may be? I do apologize if the generalization of “times layed down” was too broad and some took it personal. There have been instances (not going to call out anyone but do the research on times before/after DQs) where at same track, same kid, same kart suddenly was nearly a second quicker than the field and after tube was found and seized, suddenly was back running previous times in the pack but short time later at CKT race at same track is again nearly a second plus quicker over the same competition. Couldn’t agree more that long term hard work makes that kind of change, not one or two weeks.
STILL WAITING FOR ANSWER: After three years of being out if 25% of any Rotax spec part prematurely wore out or came out of spec from factory causing multiple DQs at races – where is Rotax advisory to make reps aware of this defect? (small percentage of harnesses were bad and ECUs mis-labeled and EVERYONE knew about it) Not speculation – show me the facts, reports or posts substantiating “wear” or “factory out of spec” claims to this degree anywhere besides Colorado and I will gladly retract everything and sincerely apologize. I researched everywhere possible, including talking to experienced professionals prior to posting and can find nothing regarding tube non-compliance except references to cheating/modification.
If big teams are spending money to buy hundreds to get the max size legal then it is reasonable to conclude that having a larger diameter emulsion tube is a definite advantage and if they were buying hundreds, there should also be ample discussion and sample size reported on forums and at races regarding the large number of out of spec straight from the factory tubes.
If they don’t wear out and there are no reports that large numbers are coming from the factory out of spec then what reasonable, non-emotional
conclusion is there that out of approximately 40 Colorado carbs, nearly 25% have been found to be illegal?Hopefully, if nothing else, this thread will raise awareness of the issue enough that everyone will check and if they show up with an out of spec tube going forward and are DQ’d there is NO excuse and EVERYONE should call them out. Hopefully all series will be checking at the races so this will be a non-issue going forward.
Thank you all for your input.
@stacey cook wrote:
I agree with Mike no one is intentionally cheating. Mike is one of the best and has always been more than helpful checking anything for us that is in question which includes checking our emulsion tubes, squish etc.
We have so many fast kids in Colorado right now and it unfortunately is really sad how low the turnouts have been. I don’t know what the real cause is but would like to hear why people are not showing up. So many people that love the sport are trying to do the best they can to give us all a place to race and do their part for very little if any compensation. When they finally get tired and give up what are we going to do then?
As a track owner it makes zero financial sense to hold a karting event right now. If we didn’t love the sport and the people we would not hold a single kart race at GJMS and instead focus on rental and corporate events which is what pays the bills at most facilities.
Greg now has rental and corporate events up and rolling and i believe they will run it professionally and like it should be which means they will be so busy with rentals and corporate events that financially it will make zero sense to support any racing. If that happens and both GJMS and Podium are gone what will happen to the racing? I believe karting in Colorado is in terrible trouble and the next few years are going to be interesting.
We all dream of the old CSC days when we had 150 entries and incredible racing with 30+ 125 pro shifters and all the classes running with big fields, now everyone sits on the sidelines and talks about how fast they are then gets on the internet and complain about everything.
Lots of incredible people in the Colorado karting community it is to bad we all can’t work together and leave the drama at home.
Stacey Cook
GJMSFrom just getting into the karting scene here in CO i would say cost is a huge reason for low turnout and the “racing” aspect of the sport is not there, out side the small community. Was the same in D.C. when i lived and karted there off and on for 10 years. They advertised and aimed for the early 20 year old partier or the middle aged father that should get out with “the boys”. Look at the huge bright NYC style billboard in front of Unser Indoor kart in Denver. All it advertises is “bachelor partys” and corporate events. Then you look at the prices and it turns into a once in a while kind of thing, maybe a birthday and if the girlfriend gets you a gift card later in the year. Where as the actual loyal racers are the ones expected to shell out hundreds if not a grand a month to enter races/ practice, tires, fuel, parts, travel.
Its unfortunate there isn’t a more efficient or helpful way to hold the races with out putting nearly all the cost burden on the racers. I.e sponsers or something. The problem is like the guy Greg you mentioned, he now has rentals and corporate events up and running. Now he has that overhead. Now the local racers will carry the burden if he wants to hold an event. There’s not much balance in the U.S. with actual “kart racing” and “go-karting”, it is why our karting game is so weak compared to say Germany or most of Europe for that matter. I grew up in Germany while my dad was in the army and went from karting all the time and it being a sport to moving to D.C. where it was nearly impossible to financially and was more like entertainment.
I don’t know its just my experience and opinion. I have gone out to IMI a few times and loved it, people are great, track is great. Same with SBR,had a great time. I am hoping to get into a race or 2 this year so hopefully that helps 🙂
Oh and i do not mean Greg is a problem, just meant the scenario in my opinion is a problem for racers. Where tracks get so wrapped up in the rentals and corporate events it leaves heavy overhead losses for them to hold races unless they charge alot to cover the costs they have now taken on and rely soley on
Stacey, I agree that cost is a major factor. Especially to run any 2 cycle class with fuel, tires, etc. Need to promote an inexpensive entry level class like LO206. If it wasn’t for this class we would not be racing. Most people getting into this class are looking for a used set up for under $2000. You get them involved in this then they might jump up to Tag later or at least buy a new kart. There are spec LO206 specific karts that cost under $4000 for a brand new, race ready set up. If you have a used kart or 2 in the showroom with info on the class listing of why it is affordable, it can’t hurt. People running rentals might just decide they want to go race. We did, but I had to hunt all over for a kart I could afford. Bought a new Margay roller off ebay for $1600 and a used Italkart from the Front Range for $1200. This was the only way we could afford to be racing. I could not justify or come up with the funds for a $5000 new set up. Just out of our budget and I suspect other people’s bugets who would like to race too.
Take a look at Phoenix area karting club. Think the Briggs engine classes have turned things around down there for them. Would be worth calling them to see what worked and didn’t.
David,
Very sorry to hear about Everest. Wes and I hope he returns as soon as possible! The series isn’t complete with him not there.colokart,
My son and I have only been involved in karting for a little over two years. I can guarantee you, there is absolutely no amount of money or cheating that will put your driver on the podium. Ever. These young men and women are far too good at what they do. There is no way I would ever look at another driver who has dedicated years to this sport, put in many thousands of practice laps and think they’ve won because of an out of spec tube.Thanks Dave, I hope Everest heals up and is back soon. Also good to hear some of the input on why our entries are low which seems to be cost is a big factor. All input is appreciated and we need to fix this as a group so feedback is good.
I strongly disagree with the idea that karting in Colorado is in trouble. I haven’t seen it as strong as it is today in the past 10 years. This year has seen a real surge in the number of karters racing. And it’s been great to see some old friends find the sport again that we loved from 15-20 years ago. Every field at the CKT races has been bigger and faster with great racing top to bottom. Anyone who was at IMI last time saw 3,4,5 karts in the lead pack in many classes. Most races were not decided until the very last corner on the very last lap.
Rotax has grown dramatically this year. There are many new faces in the scale line this year and that growth speaks well for the package. The lower prices Rotax introduced this spring certainly haven’t hurt either.
The LO206 package has just exploded. We are now seeing fields of 20 racers in both light and heavy. Many just can’t get enough and they are bolting weight on and off so they can race both light and heavy. Looking for top flight competition? You won’t find better racers than the top half dozen guys and gals in the LO206 classes. And what’s not to like about it? A set of tires will last all year, the motors a cheap and modifications limited to needle position in the carb. For less than $2,000 you can be on track and racing.
Even shifters are coming back. Again it’s been great to see some guys who we raced years ago, now grown and still out with their dads racing.
This weekend’s night race should be a real spectacle. LED lights are encouraged and many go all out. It is really something to see. If you haven’t seen 20 JR1 racers take the track with all the lights flashing, you really need to come out and see it. WOW.
The issues on turnout is simple. The average dedicated racer (50%) has enough time and money to do about 10 races in a season. Very few have the resources to do more (10%) and a large number(40%) can’t do that many. There are 13 scheduled events this year in Colorado. Do the math. Racers have to pick which ones to race and which ones to miss. It really is that simple.
One final thought on the needle jet. The international specification for this part is 2.60 +/-.15 mm. That means it can be as big as 2.75 and as small as 2.35. In our system that is a spread of .012″. For USA only, the specification is 2.64 to 2.68 mm. Again in english, that is a spread of .0015″. The difference is almost 10X more restrictive. Why is it not a problem in the rest of the world where thousands of engines run every weekend and yet it’s a problem in the USA where only a few hundred engines run on a weekend? But it gets worse. New needle jets do not necessarily fit the USA specification. You may have to buy several to find one that is legal. The brand new engine you bought from Rotax may not pass the USA specification. That is a real problem.
There are many reasons why the USA specification is tighter but I think is boils down to one. In the USA, particularly at the club level (and all racing here in Colorado is club level), we give far too much credit to the motor for our competitor’s success. I hear it every race weekend from down in the pack. “He-she has a better motor” when asked why they placed where they did. The winner says, “I drove a great race”. From many of the rest of the parents when explaining to the kid why they placed down in the order, “I’ll get you a better engine”, or “This motor is going soft.” I hear such nonsense after almost every race when they come off the track. And it needs to stop!
It needs to stop because it’s flat not true. The motor has the least impact on lap times of any factor in karting. The driver and chassis setup has far more impact and the quicker a racer (and parent) figure it out, the quicker they will go. 2 psi difference in tire pressure can make a second lap time difference depending on setup. A driver missing the apex or turn in point or exit point by 6 inches can be the gain or loss of a .1 of a second. Make such a simple mistake 5 times in a lap, there’s a half second. That is how precise a driver needs to be to run in the front.
If you can’t run in the front, work hard on your setup, work hard on your driving. This sport is not easy. It takes years of hard work and tens of thousands of laps before you develop the necessary skills to be a front runner. The fast kids literally are driving thousands of miles on the race track each year. The really fast kids may have 50k, 75k or 100k miles under their rear end after 10 years of constant hard work. Let’s give them the respect they have earned and not demean their labor by saying, “They have a better motor” or worse, “They are a cheater.”
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