- This topic has 57 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 21 years, 5 months ago by
.
- Posts
Now, Mike, we need to get this conversation rolling! I would like to know what class people would run if they had their choice.
What are the biggest problems with the class structure we have?
As for the Mini Max, how many go that way if there was a Mini Max, or Cadet TaG, class?
What are the chances of Junior I and Junior II classes disappearing as they exist at the moment?
The reason I am asking is that I have been suckered into letting my two boys race karts. The plan was to get them karts now and let them hit the tracks in order to get ready for the 2005 season. The last thing I want is two karts an no class for them to compete in.
Thoughts on adjusting next years CSC classes:
Still speaking as someone pretty new to this sport, and I will gladly listen to the ?old timer perspective,? but I believe what Bill Ray said in a post awhile back that ?the less is more? approach is quite correct. Obviously if there are less classes to choose from there are less choices and outsiders like Mr. Toby might find decisions much easier, and besides this should increase participation in what classes there are. I believe this trying to please everyone hurts the sport more than helps and adds additional cost and hassle too. In addition less classes help keep short race days and thus allows more time for teching classes. But anyway it is my believe that ?if? a new class is formed or and old one evolves into something different then there needs to be some commitment by those who want to add or change a class that ?x? amount of racers are committed in racing all races within the CSC series (This ?x? number is whatever the powers-that-be decide 6, 7, etc. participants). If that number of class racers is not obtained initially then the class doesn’t form and if it dwindles significantly through the season, maybe it doesn’t come back…
For example the Novice shifter and Junior II classes started somewhat strong but dwindle pretty fast this year. Fortunately, it is my understanding that the Novice Shifter class will grow next year. From ?pit talk? it is my understanding the Cole, Austin, Mark, and Aaron and possibly Brandon will be back next year for the Novice Shifter class and Andy Farley, Morgan Jones, and possibly Tyler Edwards will be joining them, but we need to ask those parents for sure or do a poll here on Angie’s website to confirm this. Heck, Conner might try it too if we could either get a weight break or an 60cc engine modification so the 60cc can run against the 80cc, but that is probably asking too much, and so it is my opinion that if the Novice shifter class does return next season that the 60cc engine choice should be removed to avoid confusing newbie’s/prospect novice shifters from further confusion and/or initial bad engine choices where they have to spend additional money later on to be competitive by buying the only real ?competitive? engine.Don:
You posted old timer way too close to my name 😯 .
The 60 is competitive with the restricted 80, we just had a tire glitch in our rules that didn’t have the correct compound for the 80 listed. Watch the results of the Las Vegas novice finals, I bet a 60 is in the top 2 or 3.
As far as Mark running the novice class, I don’t think he will. He was giving up between 30 and 40 lbs all year long. He will have to move to 80jr or some sort of sealed tag class. (Stacey smiles here). Right now I don’t know if we will run all the boys next year, kinda burned out.
I had to put up $50 to protest a fellow competitors motor that anyone who has been in karting for more than 2 weeks knew wasn’t right. Probably caused some hard feelings, but I shouldn’t have been put in that position in the first place. Pulling a cylinder in a stock moto class should be mandatory at every CSC race. It takes 5 minutes and 4 tools. Then another minute for the tech man to look at the internals.
I would like to see all the Jr classes have to run sealed motors, no matter what engine type. Sure would make it easier to find a tech man.
As far as the number of classes, way too many now. We would have to make these races 2 day affairs to get out at a decent time. That will for sure count me out.
BillDon,
Cole will be in the restricted 80 again, for sure, he loves it! As for the rules of running the 60s and 80s together, look at the proposed 2005 SKUSA rules (http://www.superkartsusa.com/downloads.asp) and see what you think. The tire deal Bill mentioned, of putting the 80s on the rock hard YDSs doesn’t seem to be in there, but it looks like other changes were made in that class, hopefully bringing the two closer in competition. If SKUSA has done their homework, and it works, that would be good.
Magnus,
I don’t see Junior 1 going anywhere, as it is a very popular class, and right now the only step out of Kid Karts. Junior 2 is a little harder, as that class has been struggling for a couple of years at least. There are some Junior 1 kids moving up this year, and I wonder where they want to go. The choices are Jr 2, Tag Jr, or Novice Shifter.Bill, I understand that we can’t have more classes, for the time reasons. How many karts are safe on the track together? Our biggest turnouts were 150+ karts, so combining classes to make, say, 6 groups, puts 25 karts on the track at once. If this thing keeps growing, even without adding classes, and combining them on the track – we still may run into time issues for a one day schedule.
-angie-
Bill, this just goes to show my ignorance. I didn?t know that there was a tire difference between the 60cc and 80cc and I?m a little confused why that wasn?t enforced here, but oh well everyone had an 80 anyway. Regarding, any connection that you are an ?old timer?, a better choice of words is an experienced karterdad and your protest showed it. 😀
Hind sight is 20 -20 they say, and after the protest and the protest results things became obvious. Yes I am slow but I eventually get there and yes, I agree we need to have more tech. If I read and understood correctly from the Moore clan postings, they will be back with a ?complete? understanding of the rules or may not race within the state any longer. In any case, I think your protest made a point and will only help the series out. Seriously Bill, I really hope you and your boys aren?t burnt out and stick around.Angie, thanks for that info and I will check it out.
Angie, Stacey and others ?if? the Junior IIs become a minimax/puma class, doesn?t this sorta add to the confusion? Because the age range for the minimaxes are the same as Junior 1s, 8-12 years of age but currently the Junior II?s are for 12-15 year olds. Obviously the JuniorII class is not as popular as the other 12-15 year old age classes, but this may hurt the currently strong Junior 1 class. Then again, I consider myself a capitalist and I am all for competition, (as long as it is fair) so maybe in the long run, the parents will decide which is the better route for them and their racer(s): the current Junior1 format or the possibly a ?new? Junior II format ? a minimax class.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Aaron will definitely be back in the novice shifter class next year he loves it as well, and Dad likes it because of the stock nature of the class.
Alec and brett will be driving Comer 80’s. SKUSA has a separate Comer 80 class for the kids coming out of the kid karts and we would like to run some SKUSA events next year as well as the CSC. I would like a poll on how many Comer 80’s would come out next year if they were scored separately from the Briggs. We started out this year with 6 or 7 Comer 80’s and they dwindled when they were not competitive with the 4cycles.
Thanks
Rich Thompson
Zipnby Racingboy… alot to ponder here…
Yep. we are seriously considering novice shifter for Morgan next year. He is pretty pumped on the idea of running jr 1 and novice shifter. And I thought race day was already pretty long… Brian Milne is also pondering it for Cory, so they are in the possible category as well.
In concept, I agree with the “less is more” thinking. I think race days are going to be long no matter what, even if things run like a swiss watch, but having a ratiional set of race classes makes alot of sense to me, especially if it consolidates classes and makes for bigger fields.
On the subject of tech, I haven’t seen tech scare anyone away from Jr. 1. If anything the lack of any meaningful tech is the concern.
Magnus, I have a really nice maranello Jr 1 kart for sale if you are looking at slightly used equipment in that age group.
What does a sealed, new mini max cost anyway?
Angie, I think one of the problems we have with the current class structure is that we lack a TAG novice class. Jumping from Jr 1 to TAG junior and 30 hp is a BIG jump. On the shifter side, there is Novice shifter to bridge the power gap. With the popularity of TAG it would seem logical to have a novice class.
Bill Ray, I hope that is just year-end, 3 sons in racing, burn out talkin’. Your sons are great competitors and clean racers. I really enjoy watching them race.
I really like the idea of a Jr TaG class running restricted Sr TaG engines. The 20 HP range seems about right. I’m sure it would be a huge effort to certify all the engines, different types of restrictions and determine the right weights but it would make for a nice progression. Does anyone know if TaG USA is looking into this?
Further thoughts, questions, and concerns:
Now, before I get my panties all bunched up? how much of all this ?discussion? really matters?? Do the racers and/or parents of racers really get to decide or is it solely the CSC organization and track owners decision?? Cause I personally really would like to hear Brad Linkus and JB’s thoughts on some of this since this isn?t their first rodeo so to speak.
Jeff, if I am not mistaken, I believe Cory Milne is 12 now and thus is out of Junior 1s for next year.
Brad Fleming, actually as hard as it may be to believe, Conner and I are looking at going the TAG route instead of the shifters, mostly due to cost, but I am not sure we are sold on this ?Rotax.? Currently, I am favoring the leopard or Biland, but need to do more research first, and we have the time since Conner is stuck with Junior 1s for a while due to his age. The only reason we ?might? do the novice class is that we have a 60 shifter, but unless CSC series makes the 60cc competitive with the 80cc, we won?t consider racing in the class.
Clarification on Rotax/MiniMax:
Being a ?sealed? motor does that mean it is not internally teched any longer?? If so it seems like a circle-jerk or a self-eating-watermelon theory. If it is not teched how do you really know that it is a ?legal? motor?? (The titanic is unsinkable, the government by default is honest, there are no cheaters and money doesn?t influence anybody etc..) Is this how they do it at the national level or do they break the seal and inspect the motor?? If they break the seal within the CSC then why bother getting it resealed if you don?t race on the national level? (Heck for that matter we could send our animals to Brad and have him go through them and then seal them, but that will cost money. There is no free lunch here as I see it. So isn?t it better to have tech done at the race, even if it is just a random tech, i.e., for the animal, they can randomly check the carb, cam, flywheel, piston popup, cylinder head and deck, etc, just draw-out a slip of paper from a hat and what ever appears on the piece of paper tech that item?)Some interesting observations:
This class, Junior 1, is still the second entry-level kart class, and yet the top half of the drivers in the current Junior 1 class are faster than the fastest Junior II and faster than 90% of the senior heavies and all the blue wazooms class.
I know I have talked to other Junior 1 parents who like me would like to slow our little guys and gals down to a mere 55mph (by using a resistor plate), but now we are talking about an 8-12 year old class with a slightly more powerful motor than the Animal?? In many aspects I feel like I am arguing to keep this strong class from splintering. As I mentioned before, I will not stand in the way of progress if this is the route the CSC series is planning to go. But as I also said before ?if? there are going to be two types of 8-12 year classes, then I really believe we need to make sure there are ?x? number of committed racers for the whole season for any new or modified class. In the end, doesn’t this let the parents and their racers decide the better route for their 8 to 12 year olds?. Maybe this “new CSC organization” will just pick one engine and set the rules for it, either the 80cc Comer, the Animal or the Minimax and be done with it, but I hope we at least get to vote on it.Brad Fleming asks an interesting question–why does CSC allow TAG Jrs to run a full-out Rotax and “make up” for the extra power with extra weight, when there is an accepted Jr version of the motor? (Exactly the same motor, except that it has a different cylinder that lacks the power valve.) Given that the Jr. option exists, is actually less expensive than the full Rotax version, would help reduce confusion about motor differences, and is the standard everywhere else in the country, why don’t we follow that model? :idn:
The only reason I can think of is that a few people have a senior motor and don’t want to invest in the new cylinder. I was in that situation, but was happy enough to get a Jr. cylinder and have it installed and sealed for $60. Then just save the Sr. cylinder until your kid is ready to move, and switch back–almost no cost to move up a class!
Don, we can argue till we’re blue in the face about whether to “trust” a sealed engine. As others have pointed out, a dealer would be nuts to cheat on this; if you get caught you lose the franchise and all your credibility. For a few hundred bucks? Doesn’t make much business sense. “The seal is the deal” works on a national and international level with the Rotax Max Challenge–why wouldn’t it work in CSC??? (Moreover, as Doug Welch pointed out a few weeks ago, racers who want to compete in RMax Challenge series races are not going to be willing to be torn down and have to pay a few hundred bucks to get it re-sealed. )
Don,
I meant that Brian was thinking about novice shifter for Cory next year. You are right, Cory is out of Jr1 next year.
Jeff
More ideas for the series? I know from talking to people all year, that there are opinions and concerns.
Angie
Here is a thought.
Before each CSC event, the track which the event will be running at has a club race with the exact track layout the weekend prior. I know I would have attended if that was the case. I would wager that these races would bring out more karts than a typical club race. :clap:
What does everyone think?
Also,does anyone know when a CSC meeting is going to happen? Will it be before the end of the year? Hopefully, it will be earlier than last year!
Tom
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.